At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[Stealthman]

Just my two cents. I think the rails look great. They add a lot to the finished piece. The reference photos I have show those rails. I have the KA Models set and the deck planking is correct. Pontos is the only one I know that has added the edge joints to their wood decks but I have not seen one for the Arizona.

Anyway, it looks great. If you don't mind doing it I think they're worth the effort. Have fun!
Dave

How do you know that the KA Deck planking is correct? I haven't been able to find anything that factually confirms the stagger pattern used on the Arizona? There seems to be a lot of supposition, but no factual confirmation?

[sixman]

How should the rigging for the paravanes run? I would assume through one of the two paravane hawesholes at the bow and down to and through one of the holes in the plate on the hull under the bow. Where would the two ends go? Also, would this be a cable or a chain?

[Jim21680]

How do you know that the KA Deck planking is correct? I haven't been able to find anything that factually confirms the stagger pattern used on the Arizona? There seems to be a lot of supposition, but no factual confirmation?

I'm sure there are other, perhaps better pictures to confirm the 4-plank deck stagger on the Arizona, but here is one more:
(3rd picture down)
http://www.usskidd.com/radmkidd.html

[angeleyes]

Hello gents.
I have a question regarding the hull plating lines of the lower hull of Arizona.
I am about to start building the 1/200 Trumpeter model, but the lower hull bit is void of any external surface detail , and it is quite big to leave it as plain as it is now.
So does anyone have a drawing or picture that shows even remotely any detail i could replicate on the model?

[Jon C Ryckert]

Check out navsource.com for pics of BB-38 Penn during the 1942 refit. That's what i plan to use when I get back to my Arizona.

[ESzczesniak]

After some time on hiatus (aka, mental block with some fidley photoetch parts), my Trumpeter 1/200 U.S.S. Arizona build is progressing again. I've got to finish up the lifeboat/launch stacks before I can install the rear mast.

My question is if anyone could link some photos of lifeboats and launches on the Arizona or her sister ships? I understand all/part of the upper decks on these boats were left as bare wood. I have not seen actual pictures, but various diagrams show this bare wood section varying from just some trim to the whole deck. I appreciate any help.

[Tracy White]

It was all wood. I don't know of any specifics online, but Stillwell's and Doyle's Arizona books both show it. Let me know if you want page numbers.

[ArizonaBB39]

Well I finished re-reading the whole thread finally. I learned a lot of new stuff I missed before, which prompted me to fine tune some of my drawings. The following five drawings are from 1941 and what I interpreted from the discussion here in the thread, so if I screwed up or missed something please let me know so I can fix the drawings! I made the original drawing in 2007, but did the changes just today. (These are not the full size/resolution images)
EDIT** I just realized I forgot the red turret tops on the early '41 drawing, that has been fixed

[Tracy White]

The bottom ones should have the 5-D and 5-S inverted; the order Ron Smith read to me over the phone (that we haven't been able to find since, so there's no way for me to post, dammit) ordered the ships to keep enough 5-D for one full repainting of the hull up to the deck, with 5-S or 5-O to be painted above that AS NEEDED for touch-up. It was essentially a modified Measure 2 graded scheme.

[Timmy C]

I think that last drawing depicts the survivor account version that was posted some pages back, rather than the official ordered possibility.

[ArizonaBB39]

Timmy is right, I based that last one on the report of Mr Bruner's account(I think thats who it was). I'll have to make another drawing depicting what you mentioned Ron found too. So many possibilities!

[angeleyes]

More questions for the Arixona experts.
A) I noticed the 1/200 Trumpeters Arizona shafts ends on the hull are not quite as they appear in most large scale models i see on the net.Any detail shots or drawings on this?
B)Did and if so when did Arizona had an external pipe running on the side of the hull (possibly some sort of fuel pipe for the aircraft i think i heard from somewhere )Any drawings on this also?
C)I assume the torpedo tube at the front end of the lower hull was not present any more at time of 41 as i assume it was covered by the extra bulge by that time? Am i correct?

[ESzczesniak]

C)I assume the torpedo tube at the front end of the lower hull was not present any more at time of 41 as i assume it was covered by the extra bulge by that time? Am i correct?

Unfortunately, I am unable to answer most of your questions. However, regarding C, you are correct that the torpedo tube was removed. I believe it was during the 1929-1931 refit, but am not certain on that one. They were ultimately considered useless, leading to their removal.

[BFR4570]

Timmy is right, I based that last one on the report of Mr Bruner's account(I think thats who it was). I'll have to make another drawing depicting what you mentioned Ron found too. So many possibilities!

I really like that version! Nice contrast between the 5-D and 5-S. I know there is no way to prove it (unless someone finds a color pic of the Arizona from Nov 1 to Dec 6, 1941, and yes, I know there can be color shift, etc...) but from Mr. Bruner's description, this feels right for a ship that was in transition from one scheme to another. It is also consistent with the pics we do have of the Arizona post-attack. What can be seen of the rear turrets looks blue, or at least it looks too light to be 5-D (regardless of any color shift), which by all accounts was nearly black. The Main Mast does appear to be nearly black, but was that paint? Or soot? If it was just the original 5-D, then that is entirely consistent with Mr. Bruner's recollection. But that is just my opinion. For me, I believe I will use the scheme you show on plate #5 when I can finally do my Trumpeter.

[dsk]

I agree the post-attack closeup pics of the aft turrets in Stillwell's book appear too light to be 5D, but the entire lower portion of the mainmast as well as the boat cranes were consumed by the flames of the initial explosion and fire. Most pics seen of the Arizona burning were taken after the big fireball had subsided and the wreck was merely a big pall of smoke, which can mislead people into thinking the mainmast and cranes were basically untouched. Probably the only area where 5D/5S paint might have been left anywhere on the masts or superstructure would've been the upper mainmast just below the 5L, and I doubt anyone has a good color pic of that location.

[ESzczesniak]

Ok, adding to the group of questions, here's another one. On measure 1 when the Arizona was in 5-D, what color were the horizontal decks above the smoke stack level (i.e., where 5-L was used)? Based on the description of measure 1, they shoudl be 5-D. However, the pictures I can locate make these areas look very light and confluent with the 5-L. Unfortunately, they are also at fairly low incident angles, so could be easily confused.

Just as a guess, Tracy White is going to be the guy with the answer...I hope you realize I owe you at least a case of beer of your choice by the time I finish my U.S.S. Arizona.

[Tracy White]

I hope you realize I owe you at least a case of beer of your choice by the time I finish my U.S.S. Arizona.

Naw, we just owe the ship's crew our respect, is all.

That said, I don't have a good answer for you with regards to the platforms. I'm still researching it. There's a good chance a lot of them were covered with linoleum, but I've found nothing to support that, textually. I'm hoping to take another crack at it in the Pearl Harbor Navy Yard files in a couple of months, but I have nothing more than that, really at this point.

[BFR4570]

I agree the post-attack closeup pics of the aft turrets in Stillwell's book appear too light to be 5D, but the entire lower portion of the mainmast as well as the boat cranes were consumed by the flames of the initial explosion and fire. Most pics seen of the Arizona burning were taken after the big fireball had subsided and the wreck was merely a big pall of smoke, which can mislead people into thinking the mainmast and cranes were basically untouched. Probably the only area where 5D/5S paint might have been left anywhere on the masts or superstructure would've been the upper mainmast just below the 5L, and I doubt anyone has a good color pic of that location.

I went back and looked closer at the Navsource pics post-attack. There is one pic in Navsource showing the fireball, and the MainMast is clear. The flames and smoke are blowing toward the bow.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013903b.jpg

There are several other pics while the ship was still burning that show the Main Mast clearly. These pics show the bottom approx. 20 feet to be burnt clean of paint. Above that is soot or 5-D. At the demarcation line for the 5-L there is very little sign of soot. It is clearly 5-L on the tripod above the platform. Just below that appears to be 5-D. A couple of these pics also show Turret #3, and it is clearly a lighter shade than the Main Mast just below the 5-L demarkation line. This is one of these pics.
http://navsource.org/archives/01/039/013905.jpg

Please note the port side tripod just below the searchlight platform. It is about the same angle as the side of Turret#3, yet the color is much darker than the side of the turret. Also, the edge of the platform is darker than the turret. Also, the vertical surface on the side of the turret rangefinder is reflecting lighter than the sides of the platform. The following pic shows clearly the difference in colors between the Upper Main Mast, the Lower Main Mast, and the rear turrets. You can clearly see the discoloration of the rear of turret #3, but the front of the turret looks very much like Turret #4, which by all accounts was untouched.
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013916b.jpg

It is also clear that the fire and smoke never reached the Upper Main Mast. The paint looks very clean for having been in a fire. This pic is dated 12/12/1941. It is not unreasonable to presume that the Searchlight Platform was virtually untouched also, yet it is much darker than the Turrets. This picture by itself appears to show a basic confirmation of Mr. Bruner's story. Yes, I know, the facts cannot be fully known. But there seem to be some clear indications on this picture that cannot be explained any other way. Could this pic, staring at us all along, be a smoking gun? I leave that decision to each of you to decide for yourself. For me, I feel this is enough to confirm how I will want to paint my 1/200. Thank you to ArizonaBB39 for giving us a visual representation of how she may have looked.

[dsk]

I first mentioned that pic here about two years ago when I started working on my 1/200 Arizona. While intriguing, the fact remains we're still staring at a low-res black & white picture and trying to see what we're hoping to see. One thing for sure however, that pic certainly doesn't disprove the mixed 5D/5S theory.

[BFR4570]

I first mentioned that pic here about two years ago when I started working on my 1/200 Arizona. While intriguing, the fact remains we're still staring at a low-res black & white picture and trying to see what we're hoping to see. One thing for sure however, that pic certainly doesn't disprove the mixed 5D/5S theory.

True, the resolution isn't what it might have been, but because it is black & white (please correct me if I am wrong), there has been, and can be, no color shift. Doesn't B&W consistently show the difference in colors as different shades of grey? When two surfaces are at a similar angle to the light source, and said light source is large enough to illuminate the entire area (as the sun is doing in this pic), then those two surfaces are in fact different colors, or at the least, different shades of the same color. This may be a case where a B&W pic is actually better than an old color pic at determining how many different shades of paint were in use at that time. Since there was a very small list of possibilities (3), and there are three different shades of grey showing in this pic, that pretty much defines what this picture is telling us. Can anyone else think of anything that might explain the differences in these three shades of grey? Keeping in mind that, while it may be possible for the Main Mast to have been burnt black right up to the Searchlight Platform without touching the tripod legs immediately above where the platform was attached, it is IMHO very highly unlikely that this could have occurred. Therefore the platform and the tripod legs immediately below the platform are likely 5-D given how much darker they are than the turrets. When you zoom in (even up to 400%) it is clear that the fire did in fact reach this area of the ship. But only about the bottom 20 feet of each leg, and the cranes, and the back end of Turret #3, show definite damage. All the pics of the Arizona post-attack consistently show the wind blowing the smoke toward the bow. This undoubtedly contributed to the lack of smoke damage on the upper section of the Main Mast.

I think this picture may have been overlooked in the past because the original thinking was that there were only two possible colors available. But now that we know there were actually three colors available (whether they were actually used or not, they were available. Hadn't the Helena already been painted 5-S at Pearl?), and given Mr. Bruner's account, this picture now appears to make more sense. As you stated above, dsk, at the very least it does not disprove Mr. Bruner's account. But is it the smoking gun we have been looking for? Again, I will leave that to each of you to decide for yourself. For myself, the evidence, and the logic to support it are present in this picture.