Calling all Essex-class (WWII configuration) fans

[Timmy C]

Dennis, Navsource does not allow you to use the [img] tags on their pictures. Just leave the link as-is and people can click on the link to view the image.

[Tracy White]

Your photo doesn't show, but I believe you're talking about the Mk 51 director tub that was on a tall pedestal between the #2 twin 5" mount and the island. The later-war fits saw a blast shield of sorts fit on the rear of this tub to protect the crew from blast of the 40mms behind them. Bunker Hill later had this pedastal removed and the director moved to a tub at the front of the island. I think this is what you are seeing.

Edit: This is the photo he's referring to:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021739.jpg

[DennisJP]

Your photo doesn't show, but I believe you're talking about the Mk 51 director tub that was on a tall pedestal between the #2 twin 5" mount and the island. The later-war fits saw a blast shield of sorts fit on the rear of this tub to protect the crew from blast of the 40mms behind them. Bunker Hill later had this pedastal removed and the director moved to a tub at the front of the island. I think this is what you are seeing.

Edit: This is the photo he's referring to:
http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021739.jpg

Yes, thank you. This is the picture. Thank You Tim about posting pictures.
I found this photo due to my research on Yorktown CV-10. I have noticed that some of the ships have different "End War" island configurations. Beyond their radar positions some have not extended their flag bridge it seems and others did. In all it seems the navigation bridge was extended.
Bunker Hills photo at that present time matches Yorktown's after 1944 (September) as far as bridge and flag bridge area it seems. The Mk 51 gun director tube was yes removed in Bunker Hill but not Yorktown, it seems.
I would ask what 40 mm gun tube does this MK 51 service?

http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/021006.jpg

[Tracy White]

First off; that photo is of a 20mm gun gallery and not a Mk 51; it's on the starboard side aft of the #4 twin 5" mount.

The differences between ships have a bit to do with when they were built and when they made it in for overhaul. Essex CV-9, for example, had only one overhaul during the war. It was after they had ordered the flag bridge expanded but before many of the other AA changes happened. Hornet didn't go in for overhaul until summer of 1945, so her "late war" configuration was actually a more early war Essex class fit. But there were some other differences between ships that never changed. Bunker Hill's inclined ladder between the flag bridge and navigation bridge ran a different direction than Yorktown's, for example. Bunker Hill's pilot house was different than Yorktowns as well; being squared off.

[DennisJP]

First off; that photo is of a 20mm gun gallery and not a Mk 51; it's on the starboard side aft of the #4 twin 5" mount.

The differences between ships have a bit to do with when they were built and when they made it in for overhaul. Essex CV-9, for example, had only one overhaul during the war. It was after they had ordered the flag bridge expanded but before many of the other AA changes happened. Hornet didn't go in for overhaul until summer of 1945, so her "late war" configuration was actually a more early war Essex class fit. But there were some other differences between ships that never changed. Bunker Hill's inclined ladder between the flag bridge and navigation bridge ran a different direction than Yorktown's, for example. Bunker Hill's pilot house was different than Yorktowns as well; being squared off.

Thanks, but sorry for not being specific. The picture I posted was of the carrier in the back, Yorktown it said in late war and it can be seen the forward mk 51 tube where the 40 used to be was still there and was wonder what 40 quad it directed? I know usually the Mk 51's are close to the mounts they direct.

[Tracy White]

Ah OK. It's for the mount directly behind and slightly above it.

[Rick E Davis]

Keep in mind that the Mk 51 and Mk 37 directors were rewired mid-late war to also direct 5-in and 40-mm mounts as a secondary/back-up function for the other director particularly when air attacks were coming from multiple directions. Mk 51 directors were added atop the pilothouse on BENSON-GLEAVES units in 1944 for this purpose, even though there were no 40-mm mounts to direct near the bridge. The Germans demonstrated the effectiveness of low altitude attacks from multiple directions in the MED which the single Mk 37 director on the destroyers couldn't handle. The USN "liked" to locate the Mk 49/51 directors above and close "behind" (backside of the field of regard arc of the 40-mm mount) to reduce parallax issues, but that couldn't be done in all cases.

I never thought I would be posting in the "ESSEX" class thread.

[Tracy White]

You know you like bird farms Rick!

[Rick E Davis]

I like "Bird Farms" because they made great tankers for Destroyers and took some great photos of them.

USS INDEPENDENCE (CVL-22) refueling MAYO (DD-422) on 30 April 1943.


Oops ... Here is a views from a forgotten ESSEX class carrier ...

USS SPROSTON (DDE-577) on March 1957

[DennisJP]

Keep in mind that the Mk 51 and Mk 37 directors were rewired mid-late war to also direct 5-in and 40-mm mounts as a secondary/back-up function for the other director particularly when air attacks were coming from multiple directions. Mk 51 directors were added atop the pilothouse on BENSON-GLEAVES units in 1944 for this purpose, even though there were no 40-mm mounts to direct near the bridge. The Germans demonstrated the effectiveness of low altitude attacks from multiple directions in the MED which the single Mk 37 director on the destroyers couldn't handle. The USN "liked" to locate the Mk 49/51 directors above and close "behind" (backside of the field of regard arc of the 40-mm mount) to reduce parallax issues, but that couldn't be done in all cases.

I never thought I would be posting in the "ESSEX" class thread. :big_grin:

Thank you for that info. That has to be the case. In the picture there is a MK51 right in front of the Navigation bridge where the old 40mm tube was and there is another MK51 right on top of the flag bridge right above it, with a 40mm right behind the flag bridge.

[simon b]

Just a quickie.

I'm going to start a Yorktown build shortly.
At what point were the 20mm changed from single to double barrel. I was aiming for a mid 1944 build have have some single 20mm Master barrels set.

Thanks

[Tracy White]

There's no evidence she ever received them during the war. Her last overhaul was in the fall of 1944, before they started installing them on the class.

[simon b]

Thanks Tracy

[simon b]

While i'm at it. Another quickie if you don't mind.

This ones more related to the aircraft on board. The Trumpeter yorktown colour sheets info seems a little messy. Do the aircraft 3 tone colours use the same paint codes as the ships. If this is the case, which ones should i use circa 1944.

I generally use Vallejo model colour (Sometimes model air). I have a conversion chart between the actual codes and model colour.

Thanks

[Tracy White]

Trumpeter color guides are about as trustworthy as ... well I can't think of a good comparison at this point.
I don't use Vallejo and can't speak to which colors from their line to use, but I can speak to the Navy paints at least. The four colors used on aircraft were similar in tone and color, but were completely different paints. Using Navy Blue and Ocean Gray, for example, I don't think would produce quite the correct result as the Non-Specular Sea Blue and Non-Specular Intermediate Blue. I'll look over my paint chips to be sure.

Also, the composition of the air groups varied quite a bit over time. There was a transition from the F6F-3 to -5 that happened wherein a lot of carriers had decks with both, and times when -3s were issued as spares when stocks of -5s were low; they weren't repainted from the tri-color to the Glossy Sea Blue scheme when this was done. Lots of VTs had Avengers with both schemes as well. If you can pick a *general* time frame in 1944 (post refit?) I can speak to the exact details of the ship and air group better.

[simon b]

Ok Tracy

I'm going for May 44. Not strictly mind. I have a ton of those lovely DML Dauntless so i'm doing pre helldivers. Although my limited knowledge seems to think that the starboard 40mm tubs below the island (In the kit)came a little later (Along with the helldivers). This could of course be wrong but im fudging a bit here and there to use what i have and want.

[Tracy White]

Latest I show the SBDs is May of 1944; when she switched from Air Group 5 to Air Group 1. Air Group 5 was all F6F-3s and -1 Avengers (not sure if they were TBFs or TBMs) which means all tri-color and no glossy sea blue. It looks like Air Group One had a couple of SBDs for a week or two; VB-1's first report is of 40 SB2C-1s and 4 SBD-5s, but then 31 SB2C-1Cs the week after and no SBDs. June shows 40 Helldivers and no Dauntlesses.

If you don't already have a kit, I'd start with the Essex CV-9 release; there were a lot of AA upgrades that happened in her August-October overhaul that the CV-10 kit reflects. Extra Quad 40s under the island as you remember, but also where the hangar cat was, extra mount on the stern, catwalks, you name it. You'd also have to modify the CV-10 kit island to add a Quad 40 that was removed. You can use the kit as-is to do Dazzle, but not "legally" (as the accuracy police would say) with Helldivers.

[simon b]

Thanks for the info. I've had the Yorktown for a little while along with a stack of DML aircraft sets.
Guess i'll go with the Dauntlesses and the CV10 kit as is.

[ADavies]

Hello all,

I'm considering a 1/700 Intrepid as she looked late in 1944.

My question to you all is which kit, be it Trumpeter or Dragon would be the better foundation to start on such an undertaking?

Many thanks.

Adrian

[Mark McKinnis]

Hello all,

I'm considering a 1/700 Intrepid as she looked late in 1944.

My question to you all is which kit, be it Trumpeter or Dragon would be the better foundation to start on such an undertaking?

Many thanks.

Adrian

I think if you are doing Intrepid CV-11 pre summer of 1944 then the DML Essex or Trumpeter Essex kit is good for the single starboard Catapult. Post summer 1944 there are a few choices. The DML Lexington and Hornet are pretty close and the Trumpeter Yorktown and Franklin are close. I like the DML kits better because there is a single flight deck vice the the Trumpeter kit which is a two piece deck. I am not sure what the differences between the Lexington and Hornet kit are. Before I went with an SCB-125 Intrepid I was looking at using the Lexington kit. Ther are some subtle differences between them as far as the mast and the AA configuration goes so you have to do some research to get it exact. Out of the box I think it is pretty close though.


Good Luck,

Mark