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Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 3:10 pm
by wefalck
HMS GANNET (1878) in the flooded (probably with brackish water) dock of Chatham Historic Dockyard:

Image

To the contrary DON FERNANDO II E GL�RIA in drydock near Lisbon:

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Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Wed Oct 16, 2024 3:41 pm
by pascalemod
wefalck wrote:HMS GANNET (1878) in the flooded (probably with brackish water) dock of Chatham Historic Dockyard:



To the contrary DON FERNANDO II E GL�RIA in drydock near Lisbon:
To my point, if you plucked it out of the water it will go light green, kind of like an apple once bitten goes brown, but white inside otherwise. So we as model makers need to decide what we build in full hull, but Jim over here has much easier time as he really just has to get the look right above water, something there is way more evidence of around.

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2024 2:13 pm
by JIM BAUMANN
Dear all!

apropos copper bottoms, ref your photos...
-it was most instructive !
I think I know which way to go--
I have this kind of thing in mind for a ship that is in commission-- and not static

( and not be fooled by the rust streaks from the fastenings and irons!
The_whaler_Charles_W._Morgan_in_drydock,_November_2008.jpg
meanwhile-- I have been busy,.... the seeming never-ending Marathon of gun-port-lids eventually came to an end!

....the loss rate was .. epic !! ( I had a lot of spares...!)

The model is now very fragile to handle--it will be 'afloat' shortly!
P1040628.jpg
P1040645.jpg
levelling up the guns--alternating shell and conventional-- trying to the guns and lids level was quite a game... :Mad_6:
P1040648.jpg
P1040651.jpg

ahe yes... Breech lines....

The 18 x carronades on the upper deck were sanded , painted and installed

Handling these tiny 3-D printed items was tricky--the loss rate was, again.. epic!

I ended up painting the barrels first , when dry, plunging the barrels into Blu-tak to enable carving and painting of the carriage
P1040625.jpg
Breech ropes and other gun tackle

I experiment with breech ropes, tiny things to make and handle in copper wire

effect is OK ( once the ' rope' is toned down--but,... is it long enough>? these carronades have a stubby barrels
and I reckoned if that line was taut they could get the plungers et al --what do you guys think?
P1040633.jpg


and then there is the conundrum how to make/ 'imply' the hauling tackles either side of the gun carriages...
P1040636.jpg
any thoughts welcome

In 1/700 is really IS very small....

meanwhile-- I have been making masts

the gorgeous 3-D platforms ( which I could NOT scratch-build in 1/700 ANYWHERE near that well !!)
are mounted on the masts--with some trimming and adjustment

I think my masts may be a wee tiny bit thick--by about 5% maybe?
nayhow--to get the lovely upper spreader platform over the upper masts--I had to cut them longitudinally
and then reassemble around the mast in situ
---the images show / illustrate my get-around -the -problem- method
P1040592.jpg
P1040593.jpg
P1040586.jpg
P1040597.jpg
P1040600.jpg





Cheers
Jim Baumann

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Oct 18, 2024 3:55 pm
by wefalck
Our colleague @dafi printed gun-tackles and they looked very convincing, but this was in 1:96 scale. I don't think one can print ropes that thin.

What a about McCaffery's technique of paper-disc to represent the cheeks of blocks glued to an arrangement of twisted wires? Or at this scale perhap just tiny blobs of paint or white glue?

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 2:22 am
by SG1
I was looking forward to see some progress on the bridge, all those miniature details sorted out in your inimitable way. And the masts. Love the cannonball racks. Super :cool_2:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sat Oct 19, 2024 5:01 am
by Neptune
Mind boggling work Jim!

That must have been a very tedious job with those lids, however, well worth the effort!

Despite the real ship's size, the model is still quite small. I believe this one will win some awards if you enter her in any competition!

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 7:23 am
by JIM BAUMANN
Soooo.....
............"back oi the conundrum how to make/ 'imply' the hauling tackles either side of the gun carriages......"....

Because it is soooo very small..... I did some lateral thinking....

bearing in mind that theses carronade mounts are not on any wheels-
just timber feet slides ,
and in that instance it appears from what I can see that the ' haul out' gun tackles they are mounted further aft

I also surmised that as my model of the vessel is at 'sea' forec 3-4 ( lightish winds in flattish sea)
the carronades would be secured -- but ready to deploy

hence the / my tackles are taut :smallsmile:

The images below should illustrate;

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 8:23 am
by wefalck
Your ability of re-purposing etched parts is quite amazaing. What's your strategy (apart from a perhaps very good memory) to find the right kind of fret in the myriad you must have?

Did the last picture show guns or carronades? When ready for sea, a lot of the tackles would be tied to the guns or unshipped (e.g. inhaul tackles that would impede communication along the decks).

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 8:31 am
by JIM BAUMANN
Hi Wedalck

They are carronades -there are no hauling back tackles fitted when not in action ( I believe...)

--but I may do some very small rings ( very small ! ) INBOARD of the carronades

any thoughts any other lines on the carronades to keep
the stowed outboard-../ ==..> stowed but ready to Deploy! :cool_2:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Mon Oct 21, 2024 9:02 am
by EJFoeth
wefalck wrote:Your ability of re-purposing etched parts is quite amazing. What's your strategy (apart from a perhaps very good memory) to find the right kind of fret in the myriad you must have?
I'll second that... :thumbs_up_1: These tackles do look great.

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Thu Oct 24, 2024 5:05 pm
by JIM BAUMANN
Thank you gentlemen !

what's in a name....? especially when it is very small... :big_grin:

On the real Bretagne -when the ship was in build--there was a ( temporary ?) name on the stern--very small indeed
2Fi06385_Port_militaire_de_Brest.small.pg.jpg
The name script in that images is very small by any standards ... especially for the flagship.
This appears to be borne out by the two following images- as far as one can
( no photos of the stern...!!
Queen_victoria_cherbourg.jpg
----.jpg

I had a script drawn up in the correct font and size to produce a decal from a pdf
Bret script clear .jpg
but the gold did not print well on clear decal paper( no opacity )

( and 2 decals on top of each other seemed like it might get clunky )

so what I have done in the past-- is get the script on a black background --and print on white decal paper :cool_1:
to gain the density for the gold script decal
Bret script.jpg

this has worked really well in the past ....-for a number of ship projects, alas both the printing & the decal process went quite wrong ,
the liquid decal film ( microscale) making quite the mess
P1040568.jpg
A friend tried to print it with a laser printer

catastrophe! :big_grin: :wave_1:
IMG_20241004_0001.jpg
I threw in the towel and asked around for a short run / one off decal printing service
it was suggested by a few people ( thanks Rui Matos) to use the German firm http://www.decalprint.de

The print came back ( looking good too ) 2 x small sheets @ euro 7;50 including postage
P1040739.jpg
P1040740.JPG

and after waiting an agonising 8 minutes(!) for the decal to lift off the backing paper....

P1040735.jpg
BUT......



on reflection....
..... I will lift the decal and go down a size....damn! :Mad_6:

meanwhile....

making rope coils....
P1040697.jpg
and more--much smaller coils ( as the first ones were too large )
P1040723.jpg
these rope coils were placed either side of the weather deck guns
to simulate the (ready-use-and-deploy-guns) tails to the hauling out tackles,
which at 3 :1 tackles -- by my reckoning gave a tail of around 6-8 metres

(so to allow the gun to clear the port and be reloaded)

and the keen eyed- :big_grin: -will spot that the ship has been launched..... :thumbs_up_1:
P1040743.jpg
there were a couple of gun port lid casualties ( :Mad_5: ) as a result of handling the model

easily fixed and replaced-- for now I am happt that the ship is muuuuch less vulnerable to
knocking things off now the large seabase( 6 mm aluminium) and the paper over sticks sea will protect it!



ensuring that the intended angle of heel remains while the slow setting white glue hardenss....needed a 'Heath-Robinson' solution
P1040749.jpg

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 1:07 am
by SG1
Great progress :thumbs_up_1: Glad you've found a solution for the decal. ("sharing is caring", nothing could be more true, thanks Rui :cool_2: ).
JIM BAUMANN wrote: ensuring that the intended angle of heel remains while the slow setting white glue hardenss....needed a 'Heath-Robinson' solution
Have you tried Acrylic glue? apparently less curing time and a stronger bond, similar properties as white glue, turns perfectly clear when fully cured.

Question: what diameter is the copper wire you used for the rope coils ?

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Fri Oct 25, 2024 2:55 am
by Iceman 29
Nice decals! And gut address ! :thumbs_up_1:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 9:57 am
by marijn van gils
Fantastic work Jim! :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:

And I found 1/300 scale already pretty small for adding tackle to the guns... :big_eyes:

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Tue Oct 29, 2024 10:36 am
by Rui Matos
Wooooow Jim!

This is going to be another wonder production from your shipyard!
As for the decals... glad I could help :)

On the last two photos you have posted, it really pays-off the 3D printed gun port lids: perfect consistency!!!!

Carry on.

Cheers,
Rui

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Wed Oct 30, 2024 4:10 am
by JIM BAUMANN
Thansk you all;
I have a query--have also asked my closer contacts-- but someone may know...?


The distribution of ships boats is listed ( 13 boats )

and position of these are a small mystery ; 4 whalers -(2 each side on aft davits,) 1 boat ( captains gig ) on stern davit = 5

2 x whalers midships and 9 meter or so gig between them = 3

1 x 12.5 m large rowing obat forward centre Total 9 boats.... where do the other x 4 find a home?

hence thinking about nesting a smaller on on the big boat and 2 dinghies ( 14 ft)..." elsewhere "


Positions of these are only quite vaguely indicated on the plans--- but I can draw conclusions by scaling the plan to length of boat and placement

side.jpg
deck.jpg
happy enough with that

so question 1

when nesting boats-- do-you think they removed the ( if removable ) the Thwarts? to lower the height of the upper boat into the larger below ?


Question 2 ....

in your plans / book of Napoleon Amis de muse de marine, ( if anyone of you you have it...? )

can you see any indication of a steam launch having been carried?

Napolon being a close contemporary of Bretagne would have similar practices...

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Thu Oct 31, 2024 12:48 am
by Frank Spahr
Absolutely amazing work and dedication, Jim!

Thanks for all those pointers re decals, I�ll try to remember them for further use.

Best of luck with the further progress of this build from

Frank

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 5:14 am
by JIM BAUMANN
Thank you all for inputs--here and via e-mail. :wave_1:

small update; ships boats....

I did not think I would live long enough (!!!) to scratch-build the numerous - and various boats
==> to a standard I would be satisfied with - and maintain the momentum of the build...

These boats were 3-D printed for me by my French Friend Bruno

They are based on the boats of SOLFERINO ( 1861)

which carried a near identical complement of vessels

Bretagne seems to have carried 6 x whalers, as such I received numerous duplicates

The boats were beautiful--timber strakes , undercut thwarts, knees etc

Alas the ( my ! ) painting diluted the delicacy a little-
-but still a quantum leap from the usual ships boats seen in resin or plastic.

SOLFERINO - being and ironclad and whilst carrying a full sailing rig was already more of a
steamer than BRETAGNE --- hence she definitely carried a steam launch;

This conviction does not seem extend to Bretagne , who it appears was less likely to have had a steam launch ( nor it seems did her contemporary NAPOLEON )

Nevertheless I splashed some paint on mine ! :big_grin:

but this may be used at a future date on a future model!
P1040775.jpg
and painted numerous versions of all of the below;

The very large pulling boat ( 41 feet !)
P1040773.jpg
Captains gig ( hence white )
P1040781.jpg
P1040783.jpg
27 ft whalers and 34 ft pulling boats
P1040789.jpg
copious whalers !
P1040792.jpg
All the boats were then furnished with oars, made of beige stretched sprue

Oar blades width for boats are approximately 7 inches wide( or narrower )
hence in 1/700 that translates as 0.25 mm ( which is very small !)
-hence I did not flatten the blades) as that would look over-scale in my view



On deck- -like many large sailing ships, she carried spares, 3 x spars and a topmast section

These were stowed midships adjacent to the central gratings
P1040795.jpg

The deck stowed whalers were stowed in a raised position
to allow the spars to be stowed underneath
side.jpg
This presented a bit of a conundrum-- How did they do it?
plans are not sufficiently clear to show this...

study of photos of near contemporary preserved ships ( HMS Warrior, Jylland )

show the cradles consisting of a ( removable ?) central mono-posts with cradle -- with removable padded side props...

It was important to me for these to be structurally sound in 1/700 , as opposed to exact scale fidelity;
anyhow--with the boats on--only a 1/700 ' Matelot could actually see what is going on underneath!

so a compromise solution was to cut a C shaped pieces of brass....( from old overscale handrail )
P1040803.jpg
this looked -- without boat like this
P1040806.jpg
P1040796.jpg
when whale boat is on board this gives correct height and space for the spare spars to be stowed underneath
P1040814.jpg
I will add side legs of wire after the spars are in place to make it look more convincing !

Oh yes-- and I did remove the name and replace it with a smaller one...
its a little bit bright at the moment--a gentle dark wash should mitigate that I think
P1040808.JPG

Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:12 am
by Iceman 29
14 ft:

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Re: 1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall wars

Posted: Sat Nov 02, 2024 7:19 am
by Iceman 29
10 meters:

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I used this plan to make my whaleboats:

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