The Ship Model Forum

Rui Matos wrote:MASSIVE
So... what's next, Bruno?

Rui

Even more challenging I guess (We're both coming really addict)... but I can't tell you now... I promised

Bruno

I am in complete admiration....that is museum quality work...and probably better than that

How comes people spend so much effort in constructing huge hands, coins or paint tinlets to fool their fellow modelers? It's unethical!!!



Seriously, I feel the urgent need to take up needlework. The detail shots make it really hard to believe that this is 1/700. "Wow" doesn't even come close to it.

Thanks a lot for sharing!

Jorit

Rivet detail...in 1/700 scale??!!
Unbelievable! I get nervous just imagining tackling
a project of this magnitude.

I have to ask, where on earth did you guys learn to do
all this fabulous relief photoetching!??? Please point
me to a place where I can begin my jorney into this
miniscule PE world!

I have really got to find a book or school or something
where I can learn this skill!

This is MOST impressive and without compare!

I am curious too. How are you doing the photo-etch so fast? Are you using a machine? Surely you aren't doing all this with film? I understand your friend is unbelievably fast with drawing, but it seems like you etch faster than you draw!!! I take it you aren't just using some comercially available kit to produce such beautiful work.

David Yarnell wrote:where on earth did you guys learn to do
all this fabulous relief photoetching!

How are you doing the photo-etch so fast? Are you using a machine?

Well. I (Bruno) learned myself how to design and make photo etching. Since the last Century I've been buying piles of professional etched sets to detail my ship & aircraft kits (GMM, WEM, l'Arsenal, Eduard, Voyager, Lion Roar... I still buy a lot of these : why should I spend hours before my computer to design parts when those guys are already doing them perfectly ?). I spent hours, also, studying these sets, how they're designed and made.
Back in August 2002 I tentatively drew my first project, a set to detail my Samek USS Alaska... that was a 50% failure and I returned learning from existing sets.
My first successful design was a large set for a Highmold 1:700 Iwo Jima LPH, including a full hangar. I did it in the summer of 2004. Since that, I've designed and produced about thirty sets to detail numerous Combrig pre-dreadnoughts and many Anigrand resin aircraft.

Elevators for the Iwo Jima :



As for the truly etching part :
Since the late '70s I'd been making amateur electronic printed circuits using the well know ferric chloride method, which isn't far from our etching process.
In 2002 I tentatively used this method with my Alaska project but I failed in correctly spraying the photo sensitive varnish on the metal sheets. I looked on the Internet for professional suppliers for this material and I found a perfect one in Germany in 2004. I now buy from them metal sheets which are already covered on both faces with the photo sensitive resin.
My first try with those products was a 100% success. The following ones are 99 to 100% success...

Here is my second project : a super detail set for my Combrig King Edward VII :



My making is 100% amateur. Below is a short description :

First I spend HOURS on my computer to design and draw the "master". When done, I convert it into a pdf file and I send to a print shop to be "flashed", i.e. printed in a special high resolution transparent film, the type which is used in OFFSET printing. I receive two films per project : one front and one back film.

A very carefully assemble both front & back film with perfect correspondence, securing these with tape. Here is a picture showing (top) the photo sensitive metal sheet and (bottom) the "two film sandwich" :



I remove both protective films from the metal and I insert it between the two films, securing it with tape.



Then comes the ultra violet step : I use an amateur electronic UV lighting box (about 3mn per side). During the process, the "sandwich" is firmly pressed on the glass plate below to obtain sharp and precise parts.



When done, I remove the film and drop the metal in a sodium solution (a photo developer): this will dissolve the photo sensitive resin which has been burnt by the UV, leaving only the project.



The sheet is now rinsed in cold water :



Then comes the etching step. The metal sheet is inserted in an etching "machine". This is a plastic box with aquarium electric heater and air pump. I use Sodium persulfate : this is a transparent acid which works best at 40 to 50 �C and can etch a 25x10 cm, .1mm thick plate in about 16 to 20 minutes. The air pump shakes the liquid, removing oxidized metal from the sheet.

Here you can see (left) the heater and (right) a control thermometer and the air pump pipe



When the etching is completed, I have to stop the chemical reaction by rinsing with water and dropping the sheet into a light sodium solution to neutralize the acid.



Then I remove the photo sensitive resin with alcohol and I clean the whole sheet from any chemicals.



Well, the set is now ready for assembly!



As you may see, this is a 100% amateur making. You'll need a large workbench and around $200 worth of equipment you can find in photo or electronics supply shops.

This is NOT a full time work. I use to spend one Saturday per month to do the etching. I etch ten to 15 sheets in the day.

You'll have to find the prepared metal sheet. European fellows can go there :
http://www.saemann-aetztechnik.de/index.html

... and to find a local print shop where you can obtain OFFSET flashed films.

Bruno

Looks pretty professional to me. Well done and thanks for the how to.

Still, how do you do the relief part of the etching? thats something i can't figure out. like the rivets and other details that are not etched all the way thru......

Still, how do you do the relief part of the etching? thats something i can't figure out. like the rivets and other details that are not etched all the way thru......
Still, how do you do the relief part of the etching? thats something i can't figure out. like the rivets and other details that are not etched all the way thru......

May be second or third bath with corrosive lotion??

rdenman wrote:Still, how do you do the relief part of the etching? thats something i can't figure out. like the rivets and other details that are not etched all the way thru......

That's very simple indeed.
First, you've to figure out the metal sheet is covered on BOTH sides with photo sensitive resin.
The acid action goes on BOTH sides simultaneously, until it reaches half the thickness :
- If the pattern is exactly the same on both sides, the part outline is "cleanly cut" through the entire thickness.
- If the pattern is different on one side, the acid will etch differently down to half the thickness and produce a relief effect.

Let me explain with schemes (these come from a show I designed to explain in clubs and shows here in France. I translated in English for you)

This shows the metal sheet with both faces covered with photo sensitive resin:



Here is an example to create a relief effect. I used this trick for the rivets.



No need for two or more corrosive bath. Only one! Simple, I said !

Bruno

ok thanks, i understand how relief etch is done.......what you do though is still simply amazing to me....

OK--I have read it twice now--and I think I understand--I still do not think I could ever actually do the design work per se...

assemble it yep--thats ok--but conceptualize...--thats the REALLY clever bit!!

Bravo Bruno!! TRES bien!

JIM B

Very clever. Once again, I see you need to be a better artist than etcher. How do you line up both sides so that you don't get that injection mold mis-alignment look to the parts? I would think that would be really tricky??? I know you say you align them with "perfect correspondence", but how do you do that? Do you put witness marks on the sheets, like mold alignment keys?

smith wrote: I know you say you align them with "perfect correspondence", but how do you do that? Do you put witness marks on the sheets, like mold alignment keys?

You're right. When I computer draw the master, I usually draw the back film first, then I draw the front film (which includes only the relief areas) on an above layer for perfect correspondence. Drawing on two layers with today's CAD softwares makes this very easy.
When its done, I put four witness marks all around (usually a small circle with a square inside), then I copy-paste the whole on another sheet.

Then comes the "mask making" :
- On the first sheet, I delete the back film layer, leaving only front film + witness marks
- On the second sheet, I delete the front film layer, leaving only back film + witness marks. This sheet in then mirrored so the printed face of the film will be against the metal sheet during UV lighting (*).

When both films are printed, I put them one above the other and I trim them until a perfect correspondence of the witness marks is done. I usually control this wearing an Optivisor. When done I secure both sheets together with tape at both ends.

I found inspiration for this when looking at standard print shop works. It's quick and far more easier than trying to glue those tiny parts!

(*) During the UV lighting, it is extremely important the printed side on each film is firmly in contact with the metal to be etched. If the film is put the wrong way, they're will be some space (i.e. the film thickness) between the printed drawing and the metal sheet. Although this is extremely thin, this will induce a fuzzy image on the photo sensitive covered metal, ruining the project. When doing an Offset film, the printer lays the ink on the back side of the film : thus the need to invert the back drawing before.
Bruno

Hello Folks

Now let's turn on the mouldings...

We had originally planned a 100% photo-etched dio, but the large parts for the piers soon proved very expensive to do out of metal, so we choose to use resin castings.
Last month, Jean was busy working on his prototype YD33, so I went with the castings for the numerous piers.

First I etched at last one complete set of piers to build the masters. Here are those for the South pier and the complex three "finger piers" :



Each "finger piers" has 50 central and 100 side pillars below, all made from Evergreen.



When finished, various piers were placed in styrene boxes, ready for the RTV :



RTV casting :



Removing the master :



Casting the piers with polyurethane resin. Each pier has a balsa core. This is done to lighten the part, spare on resin and cost.



The largest part is the "North pier" (about 23 x 41 x .6 cm) :



It turned magnificent with the tiny rails moulded from the etched sheets. At centre is the slot for the inclined slip (moulded separately)



The mould for the finger pier was more difficult because it had to reproduce both complex sides. I used a two-part moulding. First I built a styrene box with a plasticine layer inside :



Then I put the master and secured the plasticine all around :



I did the RTV first side, then I removed the plasticine from below :



On the back side of the master I glued 150 air vents from Evergreen :



I poured the RTV second layer with all the vents protruding through the RTV:



After a two days cure, the mould is now ready for casting :



First I pour a 2mm layer of resin to make the pier's top surface, checking for bubbles :



Then, when the resin just begins to set, I pour the rest and I gently push the mould top, forcing the resin through the vents :





Let's cure and de-mould : (on background is a "South pier" with its balsa core just laid in place)



And finally comes the removal from the mold... Here is my first batch :





I managed to cut the cost about 12 times less than the full etched version (including mould cost for a 20 part series)

Now Jean and me both have a full set of piers... ready to start our own "production" dioramas.
I'm now switching onto the slip with its scaffoldings, rails and a full Gato sub "skeleton" hull.
More pics to follow soon.

Bruno

Bruno,that kind of work make me feel guilty with my own modelling ,that is truly the most complex diorama I have seen in my life,thanks again for sharing all that marvellous pictures

Miguel wrote: Bruno,that kind of work make me feel guilty with my own modelling ,that is truly the most complex diorama I have seen in my life

Guilty ? Why ? You and many other folks here do real marvels indeed. When I look at some of them I, too, may want to quit.
And don't forget we're two guys on this project...
Thank you for your support

Hello

After I made cast resin piers for the inclined slip, Jean began to assemble with the photo etching.

As he wanted to show a sub being launched and entering the water, he had to carve through his beautiful painted "sea" and fill the hole with many thin layers of resin. The Gato shown here is the old kit (out of scale) from Tamiya and should be replaced by the new one from HobbyBoss.
Note the white resin cast piers now in place.





















More to follow soon

Fantastic work

John

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Jaw
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