At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[davegee]

Hi Guys: thanks for the quick response. I have to admit when I looked on the internet and saw model blogs of the USS Arizona in the blue color, I was taken aback a bit. I really didn't expect that color, even if they did possibly actually paint it that way! But I am no expert on this subject at this level of detail. Most of the stuff I do is aviation and space stuff.

So, here's the deal. I "might" get the go ahead to build the Trumpeter 1/200 scale model for a small display at an airport here in Colorado for December 7. So, if I do get the nod to build this, I won't really have a lot of time to build it. There is no way that I can approach the magnificent models of it that I have seen on this forum, I just don't have the time available to do all the extra details. However, I would want to make it the best that I can within the time available.

Of the people who would probably be viewing the display, and the model. one or two would be USS Arizona survivors from December 7. I probabley won't be able to contact them beforehand, and even if I did, they might not remember exactly something that occurred almost 77 years ago!

Having said that, I don't want to paint this in a "radical" or highly debated color that might immediately be criticized by others, especially the veterans, even if that "Mediterranean blue" was actually painted on the ship at some point prior to December 7, 1941.

I'm wondering if any of you could give me a reasonable color(s) that I could paint the ship that would be available at the hobby shop. I'm looking for the vertical sides of the ship, the superstructure colors, and the red color below the hull. Again, I plan on making this as attractive as I can with lots of PE brass parts, but time is going to limit what I can do, due to time constraints of having this totally ready for display by say, the end of November in time for fitting tests with the exhibit folks. I'm thinking the time frame modeled would be sometime in 1941.
Appreciate any help on exact colors at the hobby shop that I can "bank on" to make a reasonable looking, accurate, but non controversial color pattern for the ship. That also goes for the red tops on three of the four turrets. I heard that one of the veterans was asked about it, and he had no recollection that they were painted that way. do I leave the red off??

thanks for any ideas, this is a great site with tons of expertise!!

[Jeff Sharp]

The directive was to paint the steel decks 5-D for MS-1 but sometimes even that directive wasn't followed. The Life photos of USS Portland on 12/7/41 shows us lighter painted decks up against 5-D bulkheads.

[Tracy White]

Measure 1 was officially 5-D Dark Gray and 5-L Light Gray. These colors are available from a couple of manufacturers as matches or there are some people who have looked over paint chips and list what they think are close matches from other companies.
TruColor Paint has them in their Military Ships line as TCP-1021 (5-D) and TCP-1013 (5-L). Hull red is TCP-1000. They aren't sold in many hobby shops but you can mail order them.

Soverign Hobbies has the paints as well in their Colourcoats line. They're based in England and shipping can be problematic, so they sell through Warship Hobbies on their eBay store.

The controversy is if Arizona was repainted into either 5-S Sea Blue (most likely what "mediterreanin blue" refers to) or 5-O Ocean Gray. Both were used on Navy ships starting in 1941 and we know for a fact that cruisers started painting into 5-S Sea Blue in August of that year. SO there were definitely ships in that beautiful bright blue at the time of the attack, we just don't have any really good proof one way or another for Arizona.

Also, with regards to turret tops - there's evidence that only turrets #2 and #4 were painted red. #3 was likely "#20 Deck Gray" because of the airplanes stored and leaking there but we don't have any proof for the exact color. Turret #1 was not painted red earlier in 1941, when she was in the all-over pre-war gray, but we don't have any good proof for the summer and later.

[davegee]

thanks, Tracy. That is very helpful information!

Davegee

[Mike Lowe]

In regard to Tracy White's input on turret top colors. I have seen numerous photos of the Battle line ships. Most show turret one being the Division colors. Like he said can't see Arizona's first turret, but the red is a definite color for mid 1941.

[Tracy White]

The Turret #1 top color theory is based on research Jeff Sharp did in various online video sites. One screen shot he has posted is shot from the superstructure from the bridge or air defense level and shows the pedestals for the 1.1" gun directors that were installed during her last Puget Sound overhaul (December 1940 / January 1941) so we know it is a circa 1941 shot. Arizona is still in the prewar "#5 Standard Navy Gray" and Turret #1's top is NOT painted red - it is decidedly lighter than Turret #2. If memory serves we decided it was around April/May based on some details and calendar events.

The actual directive in effect at the time does not explicitly state both forward turrets - it says " Battleships and cruisers shall paint the tops of any or all their forward turrets" (emphasis mine). Jeff also thinks that Nevada's #1 turret is not red. I have no opinion on this at this time but had looked for Pearl Harbor attack damage photos at archives a couple of trips ago (only found later damage) so I'm not discounting it. It would be interesting if at least two of three and possibly all three ships of BatDiv 1 did not paint their forward most turret tops the way other BatDivs did.

[Jeff Sharp]

Here are a couple of views that Tracy references.



Both shots are from the same day in the first half of 1941 after her final refit at Puget Sound.

[lgmccauley]

Jeff,
What DVD are these shots from? I purchased Periscope Film's "The Battleship Navy" thinking they were in that, but I can't find them.

Larry

[Jeff Sharp]

Hi Larry,
The original film was titled "American Seapower". It was filmed shortly after the fleet left Puget Sound and was in California during the first few months of 1941. Periscope films has a very poor copy of it on youtube, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EMlSGtAFi-E&t=300s. I originally bought a copy of the film from Military Traditions videos many many years ago. They currently have it packaged with a couple of other films here: https://www.militaryvideo.com/index.cfm ... y,in,1930s.
Even their copy is very poor quality.
The film as it sits at the archives today is actually in excellent viewing condition. I have studied this film frame by frame for many years now and know instantly when I see a snipet of the film show up in other productions.
Here is another example of one of the screen captures I posted above. Notice how excellent the quality is compared to the Pericope films version.


HTH, Jeff

[Tracy White]

It was the platform ring for the forward 1.1" gun directors that was never installed. There was one on either side and you can see the empty tub below for the guns that were also not embarked before her loss.

[lgmccauley]

Thanks for the info Jeff. I watched the YouTube video and like you said, the quality wasn't the best, but it was a lot better than the Periscope DVD I purchased. Plus the one I bought didn't have anything of value that I could use.

Larry

[Jeff Sharp]

Need some help understanding what I'm seeing (not seeing) here in this crop of a photo dated Oct. 13, 1941.
Here we see Oklahoma ahead of Arizona.

What caught my eye is the lack of detail on Arizona's boat deck. It appears that there are no 5" guns, splinter shields, or empty gun tub on that deck. Compare it to Okie's boat deck which is very cluttered.

Any guesses?

[Tracy White]

The railings on the main and forecastle deck below the boat deck look bright - I'd be willing to bet that that all three levels have bedding / clothes on the railings drying and that's obscuring and hiding the dark details we'd expect to see. My guess, any way.

[VilleH64]

Laundry day:)

What makes me confused, is that Okie's hull seems to be much lighter than Arizona? Pre-War LG?

Br:VilleH

[Dick J]

What makes me confused, is that Okie's hull seems to be much lighter than Arizona? Pre-War LG?

Much simpler solution than that. One of the major problems with the 5D paint used in MS-1 was that it faded quickly and chalked badly. So most likely Arizona painted some time after Oklahoma and therefore had fresher, darker paint.

[JCRAY]

That's the basis of the Sea blue myth. No evidence...

[JCRAY]

Sea Blue was a new paint used for tests, some cruisers & destroyers were evaluated in pre-war.

[lgmccauley]

Have two questions. The 1931 picture showing Arizona as modernized, shows a lower row of port holes at the stern. The 1940 picture also shows these port holes, but the 1941 photo indicates they were plated over. Was this part of her January '41 overhaul?
The 1931 picture also shows three scuppers below these lower port holes, but I can't see them in the other two pictures. Were they still there in 1941?

Larry

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/tn/013951a.gif
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/tn/013933v.gif
http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/tn/013921a.gif

[Rick E Davis]

Sea Blue (5-S) was not just an "experimental" paint used pre-WWII. It was one of the NEW directed/authorized paints to be used in replacing 5-D in July 1941. It was used on several ships in the Atlantic Fleet before being replaced with Navy Blue (5-N). The whole family of Purple-Blue paints could be made from two components ... a WHITE base and a BLUE tinting material. The only difference between the 5-H, 5-N, 5-O, and 5-S was the amount of tinting used. See the table for the ratios used at ... http://www.researcheratlarge.com/Ships/S19-7/index.html ... WHITE and the BLUE tinting were provided and were to be mixed at the application location. BuShips had trouble getting the new paint components made and distributed in quantities. Several cruisers (from the Scouting Force) and a few destroyers had already been painted to 5-S before the Pearl Harbor attack The Pacific Battle Fleet (the battleships) resisted changing from 5-D to 5-S, because they wanted a slightly darker color than 5-S, but lighter than 5-D. aka 5-N to be used instead for the Ms 1 camo scheme.

CNO and BuShips directives prior to the Pearl Harbor attack directed ALL USN combat ships to be painted using 5-S in whatever scheme was desired by the Operational Commands. It wasn't until after the attack, on 16 December 1941, that the Pacific Fleet directed that 5-N be applied in the Ms 11 (soon became Ms 21) camo scheme. When adequate supplies of the WHITE base and BLUE tinting arrived at Pearl Harbor in quantity, is not know.

[JCRAY]

I said evaluated. The Oklahoma collision is usually pointed out as the opportunity to re-paint her in SeaBlue.
John