Calling all IJN Destroyer/DE fans

[PetrOs]

That is a plan as it was in june 43.
All plans in this book are bound to a specific ship at specific date

[PetrOs]

http://www.knigirossii.ru/?menu=show_book&book=1038879

that book is what I mean

[Laurence Batchelor]

Hmm, you mean Links to this site not allowed due to copyright violations.?
They have many books there, but this one not, at least not there a few weeks ago. Look at http://www.modellbaudienst.de/diff/shima_plan.png and say if it looks like a shimakaze plan from your book.

No it wasn't that site, though its just as slow!
Looking at the plan you uploaded it can't be these 2 IJN DD books I downloaded as its a different style yours is higher quality and more detailed.
These books I downloaded contained plans and photos which where of poor quality. If you can wait until tonight I maybe able to get the link from a mate.

The downloaded one didnt include the cover, but I 100% certain it is a not the one you have.

[Dick J]

I'd appreciate your opinions on these two books:
"
*Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945 by Hansgeorg Jentschura, Dieter Jung, and Peter Mickel

This is a good source for an overview of the IJN units, but some of the specific data has errors. The book is old but still useful; cross-check against more recent releases.

*Cruisers of the Pacific War by Eric LaCroix (and Wells)

Excellent resource. A few minor points may have been missed, but their book is packed with both data and drawings. Well worth the investment!

I am especially in need of reliable destroyer and cruiser references.

I have heard a rumor that LaCroix and Wells were planning an IJN DD book, but I can't confirm that. (I really hope they are!) Also, there is a book from a company called Diamond Sha titled "Japanese Naval Warship Photo Album - Destroyers" available on the HLJ website. As the title implies, it is all photos, and has representative photos from each of the DD classes. (Including the Shimakaze overhead shot.) They also have a "Cruisers" volume.

Hope this helps.

[Foeth]

If you are interested in the IJN, the Diamond Sha volumes are of particular interest. many pictures are not new, but printed is such a quality that it's like seeing them for the first time.

[Art]

Shimakaze
No disrepect inferred, and thanks for your correction!
My apologies for the errant information, I was trying to be helpful. I had no idea that two widely-published, time-separated sources from different authors, would both be incorrect.

RnFanDan

It is my turn to apologize now. If I sounded like a guru and condescending then I am totally out of order and beg forgiveness.

Your point of quoting two well known publications is very valid. Unfortunately, ( and I do not specifically refer to the above two in question necessarily) authors are restricted to the amount of information available at the time of publication. What is not known is sometimes suggested as an accurate rendition. Subsequent researchers quote these inaccuracies, without conducting their own original source research, and the myth is perpetuated.

In ten years of researching the IJN Shimakaze I have observed this happen more than once and have come to the conclusion that an accurately dated photograph is the only reliable reference. Previous publications, survivors memories even 'official' wartime orders are not necessarily what happened.

Case in point. All information points to the Shimakaze having a double 25mm on the platform in front of the bridge. This is what was ordered and designated. True, and it is what I put on an earlier model of her.

Subsequent ferreting around, ( I am not a researcher ) revealed that the Army, ( who dictated what happened in the IJN in 1944 to a great extent ) commandeered the allotted double for their own use and a triple was substituted instead.

This caused the dockyard some headache as the platform had to be altered and the logistics of extra ammunition etc was never accomplished in the time frame given for the modifications. So you had in fact, a crippled triple which could not operate over an extended period without running out of ammo.

Interesting story I thought and consigned to the Ho Hum category, until I was shown a photo of the gun in situ when I voiced my doubt. NOW I believe. Original research at the source pays off- unfortunately not possible for most of us modellers, - and expensive.

All this goes to show that there is an awful lot of information accessible in Japan that is not yet available to us 'Geijins'.

What I have also discovered is that the Kure Museum, ( Diamond Sha publications ) is becoming the repository for a lot of this information and is slowly getting it sorted out and available to Joe public. Mr Saito says prints are scheduled for 2007/08.

Enough already. The subject belongs on another thread or site. I am just trying to weasle my way out of sounding pompous earlier!

Only trust accurately dated photographs! Everything else is subject to interpretation!!

Art

[Foeth]

Art,

with the information you have given, you have every right to sound as a guru! I suppose that pic of Shimikaze's forward tripple 25mm gun is in the hands of some Japanese family? I know of only 2 or 3 pics of Shimikaze. From the intro from "shattered sword" it becomes quite apparent how well the information is locked up in Japan.

[Filipe Ramires]

You are probably right Foeth. There's much yet to be discovered at the hands of private parties in Japan. But that goes to other countries and on other Navies also. Like Shinano also Shimakaze lacks proper photograph records...as far as I can tell I am only aware of 4 photos of her so far. The famous one of her on trials, 1 very faint one of her in a formation (at least the experts tell it's her) and 2 other ones of her destruction.

[Art]

As you gentlemen are availed of the finest IJN resources, I'd appreciate your opinions on these two books:
"
*Warships of the Imperial Japanese Navy, 1869-1945 by Hansgeorg Jentschura, Dieter Jung, and Peter Mickel

*Cruisers of the Pacific War by Eric LaCroix

As the inaccuracy of my current IJN resources has been revealed, I will be acquiring replacements for them, in preparation for a number of build projects. I would like the most accurate, comprehensive, centralized material I can find, short of learning to read Japanese text.

I am especially in need of reliable destroyer and cruiser references...

Suggestions are definitely welcomed!

RnFanDan, Go with the two mentioned books for now. I have not been able to find anything alse published in English to better them yet. There ARE Japanese papers more recent and accurate, but not all encompassing like those two. It would be expensive, time consuming and counter productive to search them all out - unless you are an historian.

I understand that the Lacroix and Wells Destroyer book will not be out for quite a while yet, not this year anyway, so you are limited to what is already available.

Hey! We are modellers, not historians. If somebody wants to question your accuracy tell them to spend their own time and money on research and any updates would be welcome for open discussion.

I understand and appreciate your desire to be as informed and accurate as possible. Like-minded soul here, but there is a limit to the time and expense that can be incurred. There is life outside modelling.

More power to your elbow

Art

[Art]

Art,

with the information you have given, you have every right to sound as a guru! I suppose that pic of Shimikaze's forward tripple 25mm gun is in the hands of some Japanese family? I know of only 2 or 3 pics of Shimikaze. From the intro from "shattered sword" it becomes quite apparent how well the information is locked up in Japan.

Hi EJ,

Yup you are correct, I 'saw' the photo but was not permited to copy it. Hence I cannot use it as a reference or stand on my soap box and categorically state that the Shimakaze had a triple on the forward platform. ( my new model will have it tho' )

Interesting that the Miyukikai plans show her the same way. Must ask Haruo what his sources were.

The IJN Diary war time film shows it too. Again unfortunately not published yet.

Patience grasshopper!

Art

[Bill Clarke]

Well, I just uploaded them temporarily to my webspace.
http://www.modellbaudienst.de/diff/shima_plan.png

I found it interesting that the plan drawing you uploaded shows absolutely NO details regarding these additional AA modifications. Is there a decent and accurate plan drawing available, that includes these?

It is also devoid of the rear DC racks that are on the kit.

[Bill Clarke]

Art,

with the information you have given, you have every right to sound as a guru! .

What he said Art

[Bill Clarke]

I am only aware of 4 photos of her so far. The famous one of her on trials, 1 very faint one of her in a formation (at least the experts tell it's her) and 2 other ones of her destruction.

Can someone add a link (if one exists) to the two photos of her destruction ?

[Art]

I found it interesting that the plan drawing you uploaded shows absolutely NO details regarding these additional AA modifications. Is there a decent and accurate plan drawing available, that includes these?

It is also devoid of the rear DC racks that are on the kit.

Hi Bill,

I am currently having problems posting anything, anywhere. They seem to be disappearing into the ether somehow. I need to get under the bonnet of this laptop.

I have been banned from PM'ing you!!?? Your Yahoo.com.au address returns my mails stating " that you, ( you ) do not have an account" etc.etc.

I will post the scans of the plans to a free hosting website and forward the url. They show the mods and the DC racks BTW.

And now the cook has just made the observation that I appear to be spending more time sitting here talking about modelling than actually building something. Get out to the workshop and put your money where your mouth is.

What a little darling!

Art

[RNfanDan]

Again, thanks for the input, everyone!

Art, as my posted information needed correcting, I'm glad it was from people as qualified as you and the other kibitzers! As far as the information I've acquired from all this, I'll tell you that although I am no historian, and not a top-shelf modeler by any means, I do try to maintain the highest degree of historical and modeling accuracy I possibly can!

I especially despise finding out later about something I modeled inaccurately, or having bad information I thought was valid! I've rid myself of bad resources before, and I have no qualms about doing it again--except maybe, when that bad information cost me good money to acquire!

I'll be weeding out my reference library again, soon!



I'd like to think others have benefited from the infusion of the good information, especially Mr. Clarke, whom now is duty-bound to make one fantastically accurate Shimakaze model

[Bill Clarke]

Hi Bill,

I am currently having problems posting anything, anywhere. They seem to be disappearing into the ether somehow. I need to get under the bonnet of this laptop.

I have been banned from PM'ing you!!?? Your Yahoo.com.au address returns my mails stating " that you, ( you ) do not have an account" etc.etc.

I will post the scans of the plans to a free hosting website and forward the url. They show the mods and the DC racks BTW.

And now the cook has just made the observation that I appear to be spending more time sitting here talking about modelling than actually building something. Get out to the workshop and put your money where your mouth is.

What a little darling!

Art[/quote]

Many thanks Art.

[Bill Clarke]

I'd like to think others have benefited from the infusion of the good information, especially Mr. Clarke, whom now is duty-bound to make one fantastically accurate Shimakaze model

Geez mate put me under pressure why don't you , well I am off to the Middle East in the next couple of weeks for a 6 month stint, don't know how much modelling I'll get to do over there. I will as time permits follow the threads on this forum though.

[Art]

Again, thanks for the input, everyone!

As far as the information I've acquired from all this, I'll tell you that although I am no historian, and not a top-shelf modeler by any means, I do try to maintain the highest degree of historical and modeling accuracy I possibly can!

Perhaps a start for those of you who do not have bottomless pockets and seek more information on the IJN might like to peruse the NTMJ files freely posted at :
http://www.fischer-tropsch.org/primary_ ... MJ_toc.htm

Don't get lost in there! You will be away for days trying to ingest all the information available. Pick out one or two salient topics and have a read of those. If the quality of pics etc is not good enough for you then order the microfiche direct at the advertised address. They might take a while to arrive but.

Secondly, if you are really interested in going further, obtain a copy of the DVD "Imperial Japanese Navy 1930's to WW11" for 10 bucks or less. This will whet your appetite for what is to come. It is a Japanese transcript of the discovery of authentic IJN War Diary films, (propaganda for the home front and not all IJN ) reels and reels of film that is being cleaned, transposed to DVD and categorised, ( a 5 year project if funds are forthcoming ) and will be on offer some time late 2010 all going well.

I have seen some of the reels and the information contained will blow your socks off. Unfortunately I am not at liberty to disclose details as it is copyrighted but be assured it will be available in the future.

You will have seen excerpts from the DVD on Youtube etc

Happy hunting!

Art

[Filipe Ramires]

Can someone add a link (if one exists) to the two photos of her destruction ?

I did a google image search and couldn't find any of the two images online. I got both either on a IJN book I have or at the CombinedFleet.com board.

EDIT: A small recomendation for the moderators: since this thread is building fast and there's a particular interest on this unique destroyer perhaps it would be better to move it to the Calling All Ship Fans section. Just a thought.

Cheers,

Filipe

[Art]

Can someone add a link (if one exists) to the two photos of her destruction ?

I did a google image search and couldn't find any of the two images online. I got both either on a IJN book I have or at the CombinedFleet.com board.

EDIT: A small recomendation for the moderators: since this thread is building fast and there's a particular interest on this unique destroyer perhaps it would be better to move it to the Calling All Ship Fans section. Just a thought.

Cheers,

Filipe

Hi Filipe,

Well done! I was beginning to feel uncomfortable posting to the thread on the previous page. I feel a lot happier now that the thread is aimed just at those who are interested in the subject.

I am having doubts though at saying so much. My name is coming up too often. I could discuss the Shimakaze for ever and a day. There is so much to talk about this remarkable, unique and technologically advanced vessel for her time IJN destroyer. Surely somebody else can add details?

The publicised pic of her just prior to going under will be up on the geocities site shortly. I have asked permission from Japan to post more pics, this has been denied in the past, but you can never tell when someone might have a change of heart!

Art