M/S Explorer

[Werner]

Yes, but I will still feel my life more fulfilled if I actually set foot where Ernst Shackleton has stood.

Was he the head of the ill-fated Nazi Antarctic Expedition of 1940?

[Guest]

Ernest Shackleton. Greatest explorer of the modern era.

[Werner]

Ernest Shackleton. Greatest explorer of the modern era.

Hmmm. I would have given that honor to Yuri Gagarin, Niel Armstrong or Chuck Yeager. Maybe Jacques Piccard and Don Walsh. I think the Challenger Deep or outer space trumps Antarctica.

[Guest]

Ernest Shackleton. Greatest explorer of the modern era.

Hmmm. I would have given that honor to Yuri Gagarin, Niel Armstrong or Chuck Yeager. Maybe Jacques Piccard and Don Walsh. I think the Challenger Deep or outer space trumps Antarctica.

I don't belittle the accomplishment of their expeditions. But I do not believe their personal contribution to their expeditions, in terms of organizational ability, command astuteness, on-the-spot boldness, physical and psychological excertion, and sheer personality is anywhere near the scope of the great earth bond explorer of old. They face primarily technological dangers. Not upon their shoulders are bulk of the risk of the unknown into which they tread. They are pilots, not explorers. Not one of them can claim to be responsible for their exploration like Shackleton was. Not one of them could claim to have face hardship as long and as severe as Shackleton. Not one of them could claim to have led his expedition out of the most deadly environment on earth and back to civilized world, with not one man lost, 2 years after the world has given up all hopes of their survival, like Shackleton did. Not one of them can claim 2 acts of such astonishing physical prowess in the face of mortal danger that they were never again matched - Sailing the Drake's passage in an open boat, and hiking the high route across the mountains of the antarctic island South Georgia.

There are great expeditions that expanded human horizon - Vostock, Apollo 11, X-1, and then there are great explorers who through their own sheer courage and personality made the exploration possible- Leif Erikson, Magellan, Shackleton.

[Werner]

The Piccards designed and built the USS Trieste, and her feat has not been reproduced in the 47 years since. The ability to dive to nearly 11km places unbelievable stresses on the machinery involved, as witnessed by the high accident or incident rate in these craft, even on much shallower dives.

They were not only responsible for the noble submarine, but Piccard meticulously planned and accomplished this unbroken milestone event in the history of humanity.

I would not underestimate the contribution of the Piccard family to both high altitude ballooning (the capsule which carried August Piccard to 61,237 ft. in 1934 sits on display less than a mile from my office along with 45 linear feet of Piccard's records). According to Roddenberry, the character Captain Jean-Luc Piccard was named to honor Jean Piccard the balloonist.

[Andy G]

I do not believe their personal contribution to their expeditions, in terms of organizational ability, command astuteness, on-the-spot boldness, physical and psychological excertion, and sheer personality is anywhere near the scope of the great earth bond explorer of old.

With regards to Neil Armstrong - I respectfully disagree. He and David Scott came within a whisker of dying in Gemini 8. All the factors you cite above are assets they both demonstrated, and the only things that enabled them to survive.

Secondly, Apollo 11. Approaching the lunar surface, with previously unmet computer problems, under thirty seconds of fuel left, and taking the Eagle below the altitude at which he could have conducted a safe abort requires a certain attitude to life which, for me, marks Armstrong out as one of the greatest explorers/adventurers mankind has produced.

All that said, I would rate Shackleton as similarly full of "the right stuff".

Andy

[JWintjes]

Yes, but I will still feel my life more fulfilled if I actually set foot where Ernst Shackleton has stood.

Was he the head of the ill-fated Nazi Antarctic Expedition of 1940?

Two observations:

One, this literally threw me off the chair laughing (which in the current mood here isn't exactly appropriate, but anyway...).

And two, though the end may creep nigher and nigher , I have to say that I agree with Chuck 100% on Shackleton. If you ever get the chance, go to the NMM at Greenwich and look at the boat he sailed from Elephant Island towards South Georgia.

My first thought was "that must be a model", my second thought was "if there was ever someone doing something really, really suidicial, it was setting out into that sea in such a tiny boat in the midst of the Antarctic winter.

Mind you, I'm not belittling anyone else - neither the Piccards nor the first astronauts. But - at least to a certain extent - they had technology at their disposal. Shackleton quite literally made himself and his men survive on his will-power alone. I can think of very little coming close to that - perhaps Bligh's journey in his open boat.

Of course, having done all that he then set out to hike across South Georgia in Winter, which by all accounts was absolutely impossible. Again, go to the NMM. They have some pieces of his equipment there; if you compare that with what the Combined Services Expedition of 1964 had at its disposal, which more or less followed the same trail and nearly failed, losing three men in the process, you get an idea of the odds he faced.

Oh, and yes, I'd really, really love to pay him a tribute at Grytviken one day. Guess I need to convince someone that looking for ancient shipwrecks might be a good idea down there...

Jorit

[JWintjes]

This thread might well make use of a picture or two - here is of the James Caird at the beginning of her voyage:



And an "artist's impression" of her at sea:



Jorit

[Mark Petersen]

When they handed out the equipment they didn't give Shackleton brass ones. They gave him ones made out of tool steel

[Werner]

About the size of the Lunar Module. The LEM's skin was foil, though, and you could poke your finger through it. When it landed on the Moon, that was also it's first landing anywhere, ever.

When the LEM took the astronauts back to orbit, it was the first time that system had been tested as well. One crossed wire and the astronauts would have been stranded 380,000 km from home, on live TV.

On the other hand, I wonder how many lifeboats similar to Shackleton's were used over the years. I imagine Shackleton had a fairly accurate idea of the durability of his craft.

[Guest]

When they handed out the equipment they didn't give Shackleton brass ones. They gave him ones made out of tool steel

When Shackleton had to hike over the mountains of South Georgia in winter, he had no ice climbing equipment. He used 100 foot of 3 year old, frayed rope, and a carpenter's adzes. He took the high route in winter and accomplished the hike in 3 days. He was not a mountaineer by training or habit.

In 1964 a British expedition returned, and armed with Helicopters, large support teams, and the most modern and comprehensive equipment, tried the low route, took longer, and nearly failed. The expedition leader, one of the most experienced climbers in the world, concluded that he does not know how it can be possible to hike the high route South Georgia even with proper equipment. He only knows that Shackleton and his 2 companions did it and so it must have been possible.

BTW, to keep himself and his companions from freezing to death in their sleep, Shackleton himself never slept during the 3 days.

[MichelB]

For a good impression, rent the movie with Kenneth Brannagh. Passed under most radars, but a good one.

[Guest]

About the size of the Lunar Module. The LEM's skin was foil, though, and you could poke your finger through it. When it landed on the Moon, that was also it's first landing anywhere, ever.

When the LEM took the astronauts back to orbit, it was the first time that system had been tested as well. One crossed wire and the astronauts would have been stranded 380,000 km from home, on live TV.

On the other hand, I wonder how many lifeboats similar to Shackleton's were used over the years. I imagine Shackleton had a fairly accurate idea of the durability of his craft.

How many life boats sailed in winter in a sea with no marine traffic whatsoever to spot them and pick them up? How many life boats can claim to have preservered knowing that that no one knew they are at sea, no one knew they still exist in the here and now, and no one will ever come to look for them? How many life boats had to sail 600 miles purposefully through -27C air temperature, - 4C sea temperature, continuous unrelenting 60 foot waves in the most stormy sea on earth, navigated by 1 compass, lit by 2 box of matches? How many life boats sailed in this condition knowing if they missed their one 20 mile potential landfall on Elephant Island at the end of that 600 miles there will be none others to await them as they are at the only place on earth where open sea girdles the entire globe?

Shackleton did not believe his 3 small boats were durable enough, eventhough he took all measures to reinforce it. But he had no choice. His expedition is overdue by 2 years. Everyone thinks the 28 men of his expedition are all dead. No one had the slightest clue where they had become stranded, nor could anyone imaging what they had gone through to reach open water. No one will ever come to look for them. It was to hike 3 month over the frozen Antarctic waste to reach open sea, and then take to the boat to in all likelihood either drown or freeze to death, or stay put and die of the cold and hunger. They dragged their boats to the open sea and took to their boats.

When Shackleton finally deposited his men on Elephant island, he set out again with 5 men in one boat to make South Georgia. One there he had 2 other men set out to hike acorss the island to reach whaling station. No one has ever hiked across South Georgia before, in winter or summer. No one will ever again succeed in taking his route in winter again.

When at last they reached the whaling station, Grizzled senior Norwegian whalers who spoke only Norse and who each had been 40 years hunting whales in Antarctic seas stood in a row, doffed their hats, and requested the privilege of shaking the hands of the men who could take an open boat and sail across the Drake's Passage. In their collective experience of dealing with the harshest ocean on earth for close on a century this was not a thing that was within mortal possibility.

This was a man who could lead men in the toughest and most mortal environment on earth for 2 years, never once having his leadership questioned, and who was then personally able to accomplish physical acts of endurance and courage that would never again be repeated to bring ultimate success to the endeavor. This was no mere trained pilot technician who might be called upon once or twice to make a spot technical decision.

There is the right stuff, and then there is the right stuff.

[Guest]

Just to deflate you health nuts, Shackleton was a life long heavy drinker, heavy smoker, and overeater.

[Andy G]

Guest - are you Chuck? - I don't cast anything against the amazing story of Shackleton, certainly agree with MichelB's video recommendation (it's a must-see) and only regret that Shackleton's story (and, indeed, many of his colleagues) were lost and buried in the '14-'18 War.

That said, the achievements of those men in the 1960's who did something no-one can do today with computers worse than that in your washing machine, deserve our respect and accolades.

To travel by sea or cross mountains, whatever the vehicle or weather, is one thing - but to go to places never visited before - literally out of this world - well, that's exploration.

Andy

[Guest]

That said, the achievements of those men in the 1960's who did something no-one can do today with computers worse than that in your washing machine, deserve our respect and accolades.

To travel by sea or cross mountains, whatever the vehicle or weather, is one thing - but to go to places never visited before - literally out of this world - well, that's exploration.

Andy

But to be sent there on an expedition planned by tens of thousands of people, have you actions and freedom of action severely limited by procedures and mission design, and have your own status and status of each piece of you equipment monitored by a legion through telemetry, and have a cadre of people sitting in earth bond offices vetting any serious decisions you might make, that is certainly still exploration, and a degree of heroism is still required, but it is certainly not in the same class of "heroic" as true heroic explorers of old.

[Werner]

Chuck, by your definition we should really worship Steve Fawcett. How do you distinguish between a bold adventurer and a reckless fool? Is Armstrong not a hero because his risks were calculated?

I doubt Shackleton grew his own food and supplies, and I doubt he built the boats. The differences between he and Armstrong are merely degrees.

[Guest]

the difference week boldness and timidity is but one of degree, as is that between judgement and foolishness, perserverence and flakiness. All qualities are a matter of degree. But I think Shackleton has exhibited more of the qualities, and in greater degrees, against greater and more prolonged adversities, while shoulder more responsibility for lives of more men, than any others yet nominated, and mostly by a large margin.

[Guest]

damn iPhone autofill!

[kennylibben]

chuck, you have an iphone? you didn't strike me as the type...