Calling all USS Yorktown CV-5 fans

[John W.]

Mike -
I knew YOU knew it. Figured it might spur some thinking by others.
Lest anyone think this is a stretch, Jo Doolittle was SHANGRI-LA's sponsor.

[Goodwood]

Quick question that a pot of people will probably laugh at me for: were Yorktown's foredeck, aft deck, and decks outside the hanger walls (below the flight deck, obviously) painted deck blue as well as the flight deck, or were they the same gray as the hull? Or were the fore and aft deck gray but the side decks blue along with the hangar floor?

I'm building the Tamiya 1/700 kit with a few corrections, and though the hangar will be closed off I'd like to get everything painted before attaching the flight deck to the main hull. Also, what color were the whale boats, motor launch, and rafts?

[Tracy White]

Hangar deck was deck gray. Instructions called for ALL horizontal surfaces, not just ones that were "on top." Boats and rafts were painted to match the bulkheads behind them.

[Goodwood]

So basically the same gray as her sides above the level of the hangar?

I'm not nearly as familiar with ship camouflage colors and markings as I am with aircraft, part of the reason why I came to this forum (and to learn model ship building techniques!).

[Tracy White]

So basically the same gray as her sides above the level of the hangar?

Boats and rafts, yes. Decks are horizontal surfaces, so they would have been Deck Blue.

[Goodwood]

Thanks for the swift replies Tracy. I've seen your name around various build pages and it's good to get info direct from a noted researcher.

Cheers!

Edit: Tamiya would have one believe that only the flight deck itself received the Deck Blue treatment, and that all surfaces between the deck and the Navy Blue lower hull were Haze Gray. Unfortunately, this will complicate things for me as someone who isn't all that great at 1/700 scale painting.

[Tracy White]

You're welcome - I just want to help the hobby as much as I can, you're just lucky you caught me on a day I was up early.

If the Tamiya instructions call for Navy Blue, then they're incorrect. Yorktown was so busy in 1942 that she never had time to repaint from her original Measure 12 into the updated Ms 12 with 5-N Navy Blue or the blotchy Measure 12 Modified (like Hornet). So, you actually need 5-S Sea Blue and 5-O Ocean Gray with a touch of 5-H Haze Gray.

[Goodwood]

My mistake, the bottom part of the Measure 12 is called out as XF-18 on the Tamiya color instructions; this being their version of Medium Blue. For the upper part they call out a 3:1 ratio of XF-19 to XF-18, the former being what they call Sky Gray. Unfortunately for me, my hobby shop doesn't carry the Model Master Acryl U.S. Navy colors, or I'd be using them. Fortunately I'm not nearly at the point where paint is to be applied.

See? I told you I was a naval camouflage neophyte!

[Tracy White]

Be careful - I was an airplane guy until about a decade ago, and now I'm the webmaster for shipcamouflage.com - it's a slippery slope!

I like to buy local myself, but for some things I "go out" for. We have some sponsors here that are good people here as well and worth supporting, you might drop Harry at BattleFleetModels a line as he carries the ModelMaster paints and is a site sponsor.

[Michael Vorrasi]

Airplane guys also need to remember that USN WW2 camouflage colors for ships were blue grays, not pure grays, until blue pigment shortage in 1945 cause neutral grays to be introduced. Remember that the Ocean Gray 5-O and Haze Gray 5-H were all mixed from the same pigment formula as Sea Blue 5-S and Navy Blue 5-N. All were mixed with a white base to form shades of varying reflectance, but they are noticeably blue when held against a neutral gray (Black & White mixed). The internal hangar deck matched pre-war Deck Gray, and was a somewhat more neutral shade. External hangar decks (forecastle, fantail and decks outside the bulkheads were Deck Blue. Blue pigment was a prized commodity and was not wasted on internal decks.

[Goodwood]

Thanks for that Michael, that really helps.

[skrakow]

Hi there,

I am currently collecting references for an upcoming built of the old 1/480 Revell CV-5. Unfortunately the photos of the early posts in this thread are no longer visible, so I do have to get back to a question in one of the very first posts here:
Is there a diagram showing the positions of the remaining .50 cal guns in the May/June '42 time frame? I have figured out the 20 mm positions, but I am uncertain about the .50 guns specifically on the bridge and those on the hangar deck level (all starboard catwalk/fantail/forecastle/flight deck corner positions are clarified).

Some other slightly nebulous areas right now:
Is there a close- up of the 2x 20 mm bow 'bandstand', or a diagram, showing the rear side of this feature (I know all the well known bow photos showing the frontside of the 'bandstand'). How did the gunners enter the 'bandstand'?
On most photos there is like a pipe coming out of the 'bandstand' front, leading down to the forecastle deck. What is this feature?

The Ms 12- scheme: I understand the 5-S and 5-O horizontal split. The old(er) "Warship in Action #30 Yorktown Class Aircraft Carriers" has a Yorktown color profile with all structures on the tripod mast above the funnel tip level painted in 5-H (Haze Grey). It is very difficult to tell on the existing period b&w photos, but I was under the impression so far that everything (incl. tripod mast with all structures on top) above hangar deck level was painted 5-O. So what is the general consensus on 5-H being used on the top structures?

Any diagram showing the degaussing cable run along the hull sides?

I do appreciate your help here!

Regards from Germany,

Stefan

[Goodwood]

I'd appreciate a diagram for the degaussing cable as well, as the hull on my 1/700 build is starting to get a bit beat up from minor surgery and the use of filler putty. It would certainly add to the authenticity, and I've got thin brass wire or .020 styrene rod with which to do it.

[Dick J]

I am not sure what became of Gordon's drawing, but I can review the positions of the light AA for you. The original 24 .50 cal mg's were located as follows: 4 in each of the 4 catwalk locations - starboard catwalk just forward of the island, the port catwalk directly opposite the starboard mounts just identified, starboard catwalk just aft of the after 1.1's and again to port roughly opposite the after set of starboard mounts. 4 were located atop the island - 1 each on either side of the tripod mast and on either side between the after end of the stack and the after MK-33 director. The last 4 were on the top level of the tripod. When radar was added, the 4 atop the tripod were relocated to 1 at each of the 4 corners of the flightdeck. In Dec 1941, 24 20MM were added, 22 of which had steel splinter shields. Only the 8 .50's in the port catwalks were displaced. The remaining 16 still had all of the water cooling lines. The 24 20MM were located as follows: 5 replaced the 4 .50's in the port catwalk forward location. 5 replaced the 4 .50's in the port catwalk after location. 8 were placed outboard of the island in place of the original boat stowage. (There were 4 rafts attached to the after end of the outside of the island. The 20MM were evenly spaced between the front of the foremost raft and the front of the island.) 2 more 20MM were in the starboard catwalk above the hangar level boat crane. 2 were in the bow bandstand. The last 2 were in a "temporary" location on the fantail. These were the 2 protected by only splinter mats. (The .50's were also only protected by splinter mats.) It appears that it was intended to relocated the fantail mounts into the after flightdeck rounddown, but Yorktown was lost before this could be done. The 8 displaced .50's were located as follows: 1 each on either side of the bow bandstand. 2 on the island forward of the inboard mount abeam the tripod. (Above the prifly.) 3 were to port at the hanger deck level just forward of the boat crane. The last one was just aft of, and one deck lower than, the port after 5" gun mounts. These last 4 can be located by the very light splinter mats in the following photo: http://www.navsource.org/archives/02/020524.jpg

As for the bow bandstand, there was a rectangular extension on the back where the ready service boxes were located. The width was roughly the distance between the pedestals of the 20MM on the bandstand. There was an access ladder on the starboard side of this extension, and possibly a second ladder to port. I believe that the apparent "pipe" you are wondering about was a small utility crane that was usually parked against the bandstand.

The degausing cables were similar to those on Enterprise aft of the forward 5" gun sponsons. Forward of that they followed the after edge of the 5" sponson up to the level of the forecastle deck and went straight forward from there.

I am sorry that this is only a written description and not a visual, but I hope that this is helpful.

[Goodwood]

Thanks Dick, that does help. I can take the scale color illustration that Tamiya provides and mark up a correction for the degaussing cable. At 1/700 scale it doesn't really seem feasible for me to try and run after the remaining .50cal positions, especially since Tamiya seem to be going for a Coral Sea/Midway depiction.

[John W.]

You might also find a copy of Robert Ballard's National Geographic book "Return to Midway". There are photographs and some pretty good illustrations of YORKTOWN in her final resting place. The photos show, among other things, the degaussing cables, the 'bandstand' for the 20 mm guns (that's what they look like to me anyhow) on the focs'l, and some shots of the pilothouse and so on.

[Guest]

Dick,

Thanks for taking the time and the patience to clarify the .50 positions once again. It is too bad the old posts' photos and sketches do get wiped over the years, I know my question had been answered like 7 years ago but unfortunately the sketches are gone.
Anyway, your description and the photos on page 153 of "That Gallant Ship" pretty much clarified the .50 positions on the island.

For those on the port side, on the hangar deck level, and under the port rear 5" positions I just take your word for it, as for the life of me I can't make out any details on the various photographs of this section. I do see the lighter mats (?) just forward the crane (under the crane beam), and the light speck under the 5" position (I have a 10 MB copy of the photo showing Yorktown's entry into Pearl after Coral Sea, but even there I can't make out any .50 guns on the port hangar deck level. Mats are not applied under the crane either).

As for the 20 mms on the fantail, those would just have a splinter mat on the railing in front of them, AND their usual splinter shields - right?
Would the 2x .50s be inboard or outboard of the 2x 20 mms? (Sorry for my lack of Navy and nautical English, by the way - I have no maritime background whatsoever)

I will add the extension to the bandstand, those parts are small enough to not care too much about the last mm of accuracy as long as it looks the part. None of the 1/700 kits I checked (Trumpeter Hornet, Tamiya Hornet) had the bandstand in any other shape than some sort of oblong tub. The extension with ladder makes sense.

I will look for the Ballard book, I have found some isolated pictures on the net (the stern view with fantail and 2x 20 mms and degaussing cable going around the stern among them - just google for Yorktown pictures and eventually they will show up).

Is it safe to say that the degaussing cable run was pretty much the same as on Enterprise CV-6? If so, there is enough photographs for getting a close enough representation in 1/700 or 1/480 scale (...and "That Gallant Ship" has a nice drawing on the front cover with a clear indication of the cable run on the bow section).

And the final, still open question for now: How about the top structures on the tripod mast being painted in 5-H? I still think it is all 5-O above hangar deck level.

Thanks again for all your replies!

Regards from Germany,

Stefan

[Dick J]

Thanks Dick, that does help. I can take the scale color illustration that Tamiya provides and mark up a correction for the degaussing cable. At 1/700 scale it doesn't really seem feasible for me to try and run after the remaining .50cal positions, especially since Tamiya seem to be going for a Coral Sea/Midway depiction.

Unfortunately, Yorktown had the odd 20MM/.50 cal mix right up to her loss. The Tamiya kit just mixed Hornet and Enterprise parts for this "new" kit, and the AA layout is really wrong for Yorktown, even at Coral Sea and Midway.

[Goodwood]

So I've learned during my build log, though some corrections have been made. I cut back the admiral's bridge to reflect in part some reference photos from this thread, and rounded off the outer walls of the 5"/38 gun tubs using styrene strip.

[Michael Vorrasi]

Measure 12 (original) called for Haze Gray 5-H for all masts above the top of the mass of the superstructure. Hornet's original Measure 12 complied with this, and her tripod platforms and masts above the top of the stack were 5-H, but but it is doubtful if Yorktown did this. Her larger tripod platforms and enclosure seems to be 5-O but masts above the tripod platforms might be 5-H. Instructions said any masts above the mass of the superstructure were to be 5-H, and her more substantial tripod top may have caused her crew to consider it part of the superstructure mass. (Actually all 3 tripod tops were the same as built, Hornet's lower tripod platform was cut back right after commissioning, while Yorktown and Enterprise had theirs built up with a windowed enclosure and wing extensions added before the war). Her CXAM antenna certainly looks lighter than 5-O. The other pole masts above tripod platforms are a crap shoot. It's a tough call in old B&W photos.

Yorktown's degaussing cables matched Enterprise except at the fo'c'sle. Enterprise's cables go up to meet the the fo'c'sle at an angle. Yorktown's go up sharply just in front of the hangar deck catapult openings and then 90 degrees to run along the hull just below of the deck edge of the fo'c'sle. See the famous PHNY dry-dock shot. Men are working on it on scaffolds just under the cable. Dick J has ably covered the armament. HTH.