The Ship Model Forum

Aren't these the dress caps only. Sailor seem to have two sets of uniforms (at least), one set the dress kit and the other working kit.

I have a late 19th century book that describes the dress regulations for RN officers, but don't have a comparable reference for ordinary seamen or petty officers. I am sure that there also have been over the decades illustrations of the changing RN uniforms.

A few months ago I acquired a very hefty two-volume work on the uniforms of the German Kaiserliche Marine that came out a few years earlier (plus the less comprehensive works published in the past). Shouldn't there be something equivalent for the RN?

If it is appropriate for the time and the circumstances, I think a tiny red spot would provide added visual interest to the crew.

Ha!

@ wefalck-- Bretagne-- Marine Francais...not RN ?

as I understand it ... matelots, white summer uniforms, midshipman and junior officers white trousers/dark navy jackets senior officers all Navy
( concluded & deducted from a book of old postcards of the French Navy--albeit back and white images !)

seems the naval uniform, in 1850/60s; were relatively unchanged for the matelost 'till 1900 or so

assuming the red pommel on the cap to be 50 mm wide.... that means my sailors would have pommels 700 x smaller on their caps

that equates to 0.07 mm diameter--- I may--just to please you.. .. endeavour to pu ta tiny dot on SOME (only!) of the sailirs caps

eheehh!
JB

Hello all again.--

the tedium and stress of rigging a ship this delicate is considerable

The images below are still a work in progress

No reefing tackles, Yard braces or leech control lines etc have been done yet;
The amount of required line is simply staggering when studied and investigated.....!

already I have only managed around 50%-- and probably my will may be caving in shortly!

The problem arising is that to add more.... risks breaking existing!

I will have to compromise

( Perhaps I should have built it in a bigger scale !! LoL

More tomorrow!

WOW! That rigging looks amazing. And complicated. And stressful.

OOOPS, where was I mentally

End of 1800:

There were two outfits for the sailors, white and blue, often mixed on deck, white-grey or blue, as in the early 1900s. No rules.
White grey for chores.

Depending on rank:



1892:

Pierre Loti aboard the gunboat Javelot, 1892. Pierre Loti, pseudonym of Julien Viaud (1850-1923), French novelist and naval officer. Excerpt from Spanish and American Illustration, 1892 (black and white coloured print).

Hi there Meister Baumann and all,

JIM BAUMANN wrote: The amount of required line is simply staggering when studoed and investigated..... (...)The problem the problem arising is that to add more.... risks breaking existing!
I will have to compromise

Definitely, yes. There is a compromise that has to be achieved in every scale, let alone in this 1/700 rigging !!! I am amazed at this construction, even more delicate than a more modern man-o-war in steel and steam.

Fantastic updates. You and Marjin make my days lately.

Keep them coming, and all the best from this side,

Willie.

wefalck wrote:OOOPS, where was I mentally

I would say no need to worry. Most commonly macro pictures make an ambush in every scene. My own experience, hence the need of a reference.

Nice going and best regards,

Willie.

Jim, your rigging skills are superb, to say the least. Having giving it all a try now and then I know what I�m talking about, and know how difficult and frustrating it is.

Congratulations and my best wishes for the further steps from

Frank

Thank you Gentleman all--I feel much encouraged--

! thank you for the sailors coloured lithographs-- most helpful--and also confirmatory of my thoughts!



interim quandary -Dolphin striker..


.-that being the spar that acts as a truss at the underside of the bow-sprit

Traditionally....( and in my amateur engineering understanding) is is set perpendicular to the bowsprit
and so it was designed on the Bretgane ....
However-- all ( competent ) images and the some photo where the bow is visible

show a different picture...

the famous ' Roux painting.. that inspired me to build this ship shows the Dolphin striker at an unusual angle
as does a painting by 'Roux of ship Borda
as does this engraving ( based on a photo surely? )
as does this one ....
and not confined to bg 3 deckers
but confirmed in my mind by the sole photo of the ship with bowsprit visible


.( I have already done it like that on my model-)

-but I want to know...Why???

it would be at such a jaunty angle rather that the more usual 90 degrees to the spar?

more images of the model shortly!

Was Dolphin Striker (what a name) adjustable or fixed in place?

Hi pascalemod

pascalemod wrote:Was Dolphin Striker (what a name) adjustable or fixed in place?

In portuguese is "Pica-peixe" (fish stinger) and it is fixed.

Cheers,
Rui

"Dolphin Striker " is a bit mean-..!
-especially as some had a point ( decorative...?!) on the lower end.....

the usual format... ( images courtesy of ShutterStock online)
a bit more vicious looking... with intent...!
and is there no end to the imagination...?
.................................................................................................................................................................................................................


...and now back the serious business of modelship building...

The rigging of this , just under 43/4 inch.... ( 115 mm ) long ship is taking some doing....
==> and is costing both frayed nerves and tempers...

In 1/350-double the scale--it would be ( probably ) clearer to see,

and better proportioned for my 1/1 scale eyesight and tweezers ...!!-

-even though I am working x 5 magnified....

anyhow-- below some images ...

Assembling the sails/yards onto the mainmast...
==> with it supported in the loving embrace of 'blue-tak on a post-it note block,

ensures constant angles of oblique yards to mast


I use 0.05 copper wire ( very pliable) glued onto the clews as sheets,
so that they can be wrapped around the yard-arms ( almost) imperceptibly to give clew to yard location
to ensure the sheeting gap is not too small or too large ( fine line of balance!)

and a very fine slightly spring thread to tie the yard arms to the mast
Upon ' masting .....I encountered either ,.... my inability to measure stuff correctly...(?!)

or ....

the phenomena of paint build up on the bottom of the mast; as it simply Would NOT Fit the aperture :

ergo quite brutal intervention....


The main problem with rigging within the constraints of this small scale is........

... that for every successfully applied piece of rigging-- One can break or ruin a lot more...!

Persistence, doggedness, gritted teeth and a closed model room door ( that way the family cannot hear the shouting and swearing tantrums ! )

can.... Eeeeeeventually ....lead to success

below is illustrated how the stretched sprue is attached to the dead-eye-
-then draped into desired position,
and weighed down with a ( very small and light )blob of
stretched sprue plastic with a ' tail ' that has been tacked onto the loose tail-end of the rigging.

Nerve racking and the attrition & waste rate is high...



The bowsprit rigging ( not complete yet ) I did with 0.047 Nitinol self straightening wire f
from Modellkasten
This was significant, as the bowsprit rigging performs a structural function-
for when the 3 x headsails are attached to it


detail below of Nintinol wire
( ignore the annoying voice--it is amazing )

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKBM9my5eOA
and I then experimented with head sail install--
needs more practice , better temper and longer 'fuse..!
.........................................................................................................

Installing the braces...

Ha! trying to get the braces rigging in between all the halyards on aft face of the mast was a challenge
( epic understatement !)

with much breakage...( also an epic understatement !)

I did however notice a positive among it all....
--that the sails are pleasingly translucent when backlit !

The feel and colouring I am trying to achieve is a combination of the below images--all French ships of a similar era
Note in the below painting of ' Napoleon--there is visible ...

tantalisingly .... !

-the stern of the BRETAGNE and a bit of mast /sails !!!


and the black and ' white ' feel version



Much more soon

JIM B

Now I understand why you kept postponing your 5 masted Agincourt. 40% more work. Very nice rigging.

Hi Pieter !

" Pieter wrote;"
Now I understand why you kept postponing your 5 masted Agincourt. 40% more work. Very nice rigging.


...............................................................................................................................................................
Ha!

>>> Pieter and I digress briefly from Bretagne...! <<<

back in 2013....
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=152331


But the actual reason for the postponement was that I posted the hull to the USA to be cast



alas......... the caster ( BFM Harry) vanished/ passed away--
==> -thereby I will have to re-make another hull

( which is very much easier than the Bretagne... !!

only one wider-spaced row of gun-ports and only one colour !

The full rig with sqare AND aft 2 x sails.... will be quite an undertaking and very impressive
though I plan to do so...in 1/700 a

Just like in the image below...
.( but with the, in the image above missing topsails, as below !)




The Agincourt and Minotaur ( and Cumberland ) aft 2 masts ( unlike Preussen !) are often seen only fore and aft rigged ....
reducing the work greatly and simpler...(??!!)
or not rigged at all
as John Prothero-Thomas did in double the scale 1/384..
of course a 'cop-out .... would be to make her as in the 1890's,
- re-rigged with 3 masts....

but aside from huge length these vessels ( 124 metres / 407 feet (!!)
would be visually a trifle dull...( !?)

Best wishes JB


---though the wider spaced masts would make it easier to rig... !!!

Thank you. Still sad that Harry is no longer with us. Did you make the hull/lines plans yourself?

No... the plans were drawn up by John Prother Thomas for his projcet

I have overlaid ( on the PC ) the National Maritime Museum ( scaled )deck plans over it and it is pretty good, along with a dead side-on image of Minotaur and everything lines up--aside from the real thing having slightly more mast rake progressively aft.

...................................................................................................................................................................................

and ( back To Bretagne...!) talking of aft mast rake...
This Sunday ( 08 December ) I had a clear plan!

==> To rig and install the mizzen mast and fetch Christmas Tree !


The Christmas tree was easy, fire up the 1915 'T, and Katrin and I pottered off... get tree and come back simples.

alas it was cold, veeery cold and veeeery windy
the mizzen mast took some doing, but it was the same procedure as on the other masts

at least now --aside from the headsails--- the ship is no longer looking ' undressed'......


still needs to be rigged though--with now a new challenge-

- all the braces for the Mizzen mast cannot go aft ...( as no more masts !)

so have to go fwd -and criss cross with the main mast braces....

That will be a busy time I suspect.... ( )
=============================================================

and... yes I was right it was cold, 5 degree Centigrade , and a bit of drizzle and a 30-40 knot breeze ..!

I was somewhat under-dressed for the Christmas Tree adventure -

-and in the end I was completely cold through and through ...

==> By the time we got home, after 20 odd miles ...

I was so cold.... I just could not crack a smile any more !

Bah Humbug !



more rigging soon

JB

It is so entertaining to follow this epic build!
The ship is looking much better than I could ever imagine, and knowing what you are capable of, my expectations were really high!

By jove ! I lost (again) my eyes !

That's an incredible job, and a unique source of inspiration
Now I can go back to play with my lego !

Thank you gentlemen !

It is a slow grind.... there is sooo much rigging, and it needs to be to scale (ish)! so that its
handleable for 1/700 sailors hands. the procedures are slow, fiddly and dull to describe.
the best made plans-of-procedure seldom work out--
needing much tweezer acrobatics aft where the mizzen and main mast yard braces over-lap in the same air space!

any how herewith some images,



general overview of status quo yesterday 12 /12/ 24
more detail within...

I had wrapped the mizzen mast with black thin thread to simulate the loose lacing of the spanker sail ,

which always leaves a small gap between sail and mast,--
==> however it was not to my liking when the sail went on
I added the ' extension of the lacing to the 'eyelets ' with stretched sprue
it looks significantly better and more feasible
I had previously inserted the aft davits , made of thin PE strip
cut out of parts from an old over-scale PE detail set into the hull ,
they were strong
but only O.4 mm thick ( the correct width @ .75 mm) though )

I thickened them up using some old ( 1998!) WEM 1/350 oars as another layer.

The davits have a gentle curve--I had to repeat that and x 4 they all had to same!

I inserted the curve in collectively on a note pad with a small brass tube
tacked on at the inboard end only with thinned matt varnish ( quick grab but strength!)
aligned and then CA glue along the outside gap applied with my 0.1mm wire applicator in a pinchuck 'tool '

and the final effort below is now (near) square I also added the chain plates to the shroud channels

and then 'cleaned up' the outer edge of the channels
( have chain-plates and shrouds terminating there) with a piece of 0.1mm wire


I started to ' hang ' the boats I had previously prepared

==> easy on the stern....

The midships davits ( sprouting out between the shrouds ) will be installed shortly for the whalers x 4

I knew that the aft davits carried gigs and longboats
in some photos, paintings etc these are depicted with covers

so... I set to it!
and after making midships davist ( of more chopped up overscale double layered 1/350 oars !)

I could start hanging a whaler or two...

these were held up with my will power!
so I used a make-shift support while the glue set
Keen eyed observer will spot that a bridge has been installed !

I made the fourth version (!!) using some GMM PE gold plus superfine railing that was over-etched


( thinner and cheaper PE 'seconds...)-- just how I like it!