Calling all Essex-class (WWII configuration) fans

[ChoinieRx]

I've been holding off on asking in the hopes that I would find what I'm looking for elsewhere, but so far no luck.

I'm working on the 1/350 CV-9 dated to December 1944. Most of the ship is coming together and the air group is built/painted, but now I'm struggling with the appropriate markings.

Thanks to Tracy and all of his hard work, I know CVG-4 was aboard with F6Fs, TBMs, and SB2Cs. I have 22 F6Fs in GSB, 15 TBMs in tri-color, and 18 SB2Cs in tri-color.
I have the horizontal stripe on the vertical stabilizers, and I'm working on the national insignia decals (star on blue circle with white bars, no outlines). Were there any other markings on the Essex air groups I'm missing?

I also want to add the aircraft numbers but don't really know where to begin. My case of AMS has not gotten so bad (yet) that I need specific, historically accurate numbers, just numbers that would look appropriate. For example I have read that later groups had plane numbers based on squadron type (i.e. 100 for fighters, 200 for bombers, 300 for torpedo). I've noticed in some pictures I've found the last few digits of the Bureau number are on the engine cowling, while a different number is just aft of the wings and on the tail. Is there a rhyme or reason to what goes where and does it vary from squadron to squadron?

Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!

Thomas

[MFH]

Thomas,

I hope you don't mind me responding (I'm sure Tracy will correct me where I'm wrong! ), but I think I can help a little (if not, I'm sure I'll add to the confusion!).

FWIW, these are probably the best resources out there on CVG-4 and its time aboard Essex:

http://www.airgroup4.com/ and http://www.airgroup4.com/torpedo-squadron-four.htm

Just to be sure, Essex was wearing her "dazzle" (Measure 32, Design 6/10D) in December 1944 (she wore it April 1944 to mid-March 1945, the best I can tell), but it was pretty heavily weathered by December. I would love to find a photo of her port side between frames where she had been kamikazed on 25 November 1944, as I would think that area would be somewhat differently shaded. Nevertheless, that area doesn't show up in any of my uncle's papers/cruise books/etc. (he served on her from late '43 until Feb. '46). nor other publications (there's some of the damage, but none of the repair that I've found).

When in December 1944 do you want to model her? It appears you want to model her early- to late-month with the aircraft you describe. But just to be sure, through most of December it APPEARS she carried ~55 F6F-3 & F6F-5X (mostly the latter, and the X stands for the regular -5, -5P, and -5N), ~24 SB2C-3, and ~18 TBM-1C until the 28th. Sources:

5 December 1944 Location of US Naval Aircraft
12 December 1944 Location of US Naval Aircraft
19 December 1944 Location of US Naval Aircraft

HOWEVER, I'm not sure I exactly trust those numbers, as I have trouble seeing the drastic changes of F6F-3 and -5 between the three dates.

Also, Essex's cruise book Saga of the Essex lists CVG-4 as having 49 F6F-5 and 4 F6F-5N, 25 SB2C-3, and 18 TBM-1C from 18 November 1944 until right before 11 December 1944. Right before setting sail from Ulithi on that date, her compliment of VF was increased to 69 F6F-5 and 4 F6F-5N, and VB and VT were reduced to 15 each (same aircraft types as before).

Then, on 27 December, VB-4 (15 SB2C-3) was detached, and on 28 December, VMF-124 and VMF-213 reported aboard with 36 F4U-1D split evenly between them, VF-4 was reduced back to 50 F6F-5 and 4 F6F-5N, and VT-4 switched from TBM-1C to TBM-3. CVG-4 would carry this basic compliment forward until being detached on 10 March 1945.

SO, short story long, CVG-4 for most of December 1944 was mostly F6F-5 (solid blue, with perhaps a few -3 tri-color), SB2C-3 (tri-color), and TBM-1C (tri-color). All these carried the horizontal white stripe on their vertical stabilizers, carried over from CVG-15. VERY late that month, VB-4 and its SB2C-3 were detached and replaced by F4U-1D (overall navy blue; they got the horizontal stripe on the vertical stabilizer, too, but possibly not until early January (by the 7th), as I've seen a few Corsair pics labeled as VMF-124/-213 without stripes).

It wasn't until late (28, IIRC) January 1945 that CVG-4 less VB-4 plus VMF-124 and VMF-213 received orders to switch from the unofficial horizontal stripe to the G-symbol "double diamonds", worn by Essex air groups (Four and Eighty-three) through the Tokyo strikes, Iwo Jima, Okinawa campaign, and July strikes on the Home Islands.

As to modex numbers, I have trouble finding anything definitive. VF-15 generally wore the numbers 1 to the mid-50s (I've seen "55", and excluding McCampbell's Minsi's). When VF-4 replaced VF-15, they kept Fabled Fifteen's aircraft. There's a photo in Gerald Thomas's book that has a F6F-5 on the deck edge elevator in November '44 wearing "48", so I think I'm pretty close to right, but I would love to get visual confirmation.

Here's some decent footage out there from the day of her kamikaze hit (25 Nov. '44) with clear views of some Hellcat and one Helldiver (69) numbers: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dROjC7breGo

You can pick out a few more numbers (mainly VF) here (apparently 29 Nov. '44): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Og4V13Uwzis

The Avengers wore numbers in the 80s and 90s. I'm sharing these because I'm pretty sure the same system was carried through into December.

After the Marines went on board, the Corsairs appear to wear numbers between the 60s and mid-90s (97 is the highest I've seen), and the Avengers wore numbers in the 120s and 130s. And I'm pretty sure the Hellcats wore numbers in the 50s and below (again, I'm always hunting for visual confirmation).

So, with all the changes in aircraft compliment in December 1944 with CVG-4, I haven't found anything absolutely definitive for her squadrons (and I want to!). I THINK before 11 December 1944, VF-4 would have wore 1-55ish, VB-4 would have worn 55-79ish, and VT-4 would have worn 80-95ish. For the brief period between 11 December and 27 December, I really don't know. I would THINK that they probably didn't have time to repaint VB-4 and VT-4 numbers, but that is pure speculation. I've got NO photo evidence (yet!) of that exact (short) time period.

Assuming CVG-4 kept CVG-15's aircraft (which I'm confident they did), as to location of numbers, Essex fighters through after her early-'44 refit and before the Marines came on board wore their number on their vertical stabilizer and the small main gear doors. SB2Cs were similarly marked. TBMs had smaller numbers on their cowling and vertical stabilizer, and larger ones near the insignia on the fuselage. F4Us wore numbers on the fuselage in front of the insignia and on their main gear doors. If you want links to photos, let me know.

As to special markings, the only thing I've seen are the last three digits of the BuNos painted on some cowlings. These were mainly on replacement aircraft, of which there could be a lot, depending on losses or strikes. CVG-4 was pretty bereft of any nose art or squadron markings.

CVG-83 on the other hand, especially after Fightin' Freddy Sherman left in June '45, had a LOT of nose art. Also, after CVG-83 went on board were the aircraft renumbered, and I've got pretty good data for that (VF & VBF: 100s, VB: 200s, VT: 300s until July '45, then VF: 100s, VBF: 200s, VB: 300s, and VT: 400s).

FINALLY, as to the history of USN fleet carrier aircraft numbers, from all my years of studying WW II naval aviation, at the beginning of the war until some time in 1944 (I don't know the exact date, but probably the summer of), each squadron started with the numeral one and went up from there. Then in the summer of '44 it appears, probably to reduce confusion with the deck crews, it appears the planes were renumbered consecutively, with the VF first, then the VB, then the VT. Things started changing in early (March?) 1945, when the VF and VBF were renumbered to the 100s, VB 200s, and VT 300s. Then later on (summer '45), it appears each squadron was given a different number (VF 100s, VBF 200s, VB 300s, VT 400s). HOWEVER, on ships that carried the same type of VF and VBF, I'm not sure they renumbered each squadron, as they usually shared aircraft. HOWEVER, NONE OF THIS IS BASED ON DOCUMENTS, just from studying photographs and dates. And ships converted at different times. What's true for Essex date-wise may not be true for Yorktown or Ticonderoga or Hancock or Shangri-la, etc.

I can't wait to see everything when you're done!

Mark

[Tracy White]

I haven't weighted in because I don't really have anything to add - I've been looking for official documents that would give us something concrete (as much as two attempts over a year's period can be considered "looking") and have busted. That said, I've been working on CV-38 Shangri-La's Air Group with the help of others and there are some similarities to what Mark listed for Essex.

[Rob-UK]

Just seen this for the first time: 'A Wing and a prayer' - an excellent movie made in 1944 on an Essex class, portraying a carrier at war leading up to and including Midway. Full of life on the carrier and in naval aviation at the time.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xly4B2JpHw0

A good addition to 'The Fighting Lady' for seeing life aboard a carrier during the war.

[Traff]

Is someone able to assist? Does any one know when CV-16 got her twin 20mm and if all the singles were replaced at the same time. I have the dragon kit and see that they have provided a bunch of twins. I tried to find out more but unfortunately all professor google could show me was a single photo of the quad 50 mount with a twin 20 next to it.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[MFH]

IIRC, Lex got her twin 20s after her refit in the spring of 1945. I do not believe all of her singles were replaced at the same time. I also think she got some of the quad .50s at the same time (she and Wasp), but I'm not at the house and don't have my references with me. I'll try and check later in the week.

[Tracy White]

Lexington's May 1945 departure report states as 100% complete:

Do incidental ordnance work to remove all (63) 20MM (single) mounts and replace with (35) 20MM (twin) mts. Mk 24 Mod. 5

Looking at pictures I see two on the forward starboard island gallery (in between Mk 51 directors for the Quad 40mms underneath) and two ahead of a Mk 51 director in the aft starboard island gallery. The photos I have were taken near Puget Sound Naval Shipyard and the crew has so much extra crap in the galleries that the aerial shots are pretty useless for determining what is where. However, the shots from water level show that the port forward gallery had four twin 20MMs, the port midships gallery above the twin 40mm sponson is unclear but appears to have three 20mms and a quad .50 cal as the aft most gun, the port midships gallery behind the deck edge elevator has four twin 20mms, and the aft gallery has what looks like three twin 20mms and a quad .50 aft. The forward starboard gallery has four twin 20mms mounted behind a quad .50, and another gallery immediately after that has three twin 20mms ahead of a quad .50 mounted aft. The aft starboard gallery (behind twin 5" mount #4) has four twin 20mms and a quad .50 cal.

[Traff]

Thanks for the help MFH and Tracy. Very much appreciated.

[MFH]

FWIW, if you can get your hands on this, it shows Lexington's flight deck armament in May 1945: http://www.amazon.com/Essex-Class-Carri ... Alan+Raven

It shows the locations of her twin 20mm and quad 0.50 caliber Army M45 mounts, around her flight deck and on her island.

As far as I know, it's correct, but I have not taken the time to compare it to photographs.

[MFH]

P.S. The layouts are on pages 62-65.

[Jamie Alguire]

Guys:
I have the 350 Trumpy CV-9 kit and would like to build it as a dazzle-type camo short hull ship, what are my options, without too much scratch building? Seems Franklin was commissioned with dazzle camo paint and before its Jan 1945 overhaul could be a choice, ie. the weapons suite & early bridge match the CV-9 kit? The others seemed to convert to dazzle camo after their overhauls to late style bridge & weapons suite (which is not possible with the CV-9 kit).
Thanks!

[Traff]

FWIW, if you can get your hands on this, it shows Lexington's flight deck armament in May 1945: http://www.amazon.com/Essex-Class-Carri ... Alan+Raven

It shows the locations of her twin 20mm and quad 0.50 caliber Army M45 mounts, around her flight deck and on her island.

As far as I know, it's correct, but I have not taken the time to compare it to photographs.

Thanks mate. I am afraid that is a little out of my price range at the moment, but I will keep it in mind.

[Mark McKinnis]

Guys:
I have the 350 Trumpy CV-9 kit and would like to build it as a dazzle-type camo short hull ship, what are my options, without too much scratch building? Seems Franklin was commissioned with dazzle camo paint and before its Jan 1945 overhaul could be a choice, ie. the weapons suite & early bridge match the CV-9 kit? The others seemed to convert to dazzle camo after their overhauls to late style bridge & weapons suite (which is not possible with the CV-9 kit).
Thanks!

In addition to the island, you have to look at the bow cats. The Essex Kit only has the starboard Bow Cat. So you need a candidate with the old island configuration and original cat layout.

Check any of the "short hull" carriers at the time of their arrival in the pacific. The Battle of Philippine Sea had the following Essex Class Carriers and I tihnk that they all wore dazzle schemes at that time:

CV-9
CV-10
CV-11
CV-12
CV-16
CV-17
CV-18

So pick one of these carriers and compare whether they had the original island 40mm layout and the one starboard deck catapult while they wore the dazzle paint scheme. Some might have already gotten the updated island and two bow cats before they went to war with the dazzle scheme. I seem to recall that the Wasp CV-18 didn't get those updates until early 1945 so that might be a winner. Of course they all had slightly different layouts for mast, radars, and the antenna.

Good luck,

Mark

[Adaks]

Guys:
I have the 350 Trumpy CV-9 kit and would like to build it as a dazzle-type camo short hull ship, what are my options, without too much scratch building? Seems Franklin was commissioned with dazzle camo paint and before its Jan 1945 overhaul could be a choice, ie. the weapons suite & early bridge match the CV-9 kit? The others seemed to convert to dazzle camo after their overhauls to late style bridge & weapons suite (which is not possible with the CV-9 kit).
Thanks!

If you want to build 1/350 Trumpeter CV-9 in dazzle and without too much scratch building (short hull, early island, one deck catapult, early AA fit) your choices are:

1. CV-10 Yorktown
2. CV-12 Hornet
3. CV-13 Franklin (but before she went to war zone)
4. CV-17 Bunker Hill
5. CV-18 Wasp

Hope this helps.

[SeanF]

Guys:
I have the 350 Trumpy CV-9 kit and would like to build it as a dazzle-type camo short hull ship, what are my options, without too much scratch building? Seems Franklin was commissioned with dazzle camo paint and before its Jan 1945 overhaul could be a choice, ie. the weapons suite & early bridge match the CV-9 kit? The others seemed to convert to dazzle camo after their overhauls to late style bridge & weapons suite (which is not possible with the CV-9 kit).
Thanks!

If you want to build 1/350 Trumpeter CV-9 in dazzle and without too much scratch building (short hull, early island, one deck catapult, early AA fit) your choices are:

1. CV-10 Yorktown
2. CV-12 Hornet
3. CV-13 Franklin (but before she went to war zone)
4. CV-17 Bunker Hill
5. CV-18 Wasp

Hope this helps.

If by "early island" you mean with the 40mm quad tub right in front of the bridge, then this is incorrect. Essex had her bridge extended during the refit that left her in dazzle.

- Sean F.

[Tracy White]

Not that Adaks wasn't putting CV-9 on the list, he was just mentioning the CV-9 kit as a starting point.

[Adaks]

Not that Adaks wasn't putting CV-9 on the list, he was just mentioning the CV-9 kit as a starting point.

Tracy is right. I was referring to Trumpeter CV-9 kit (5602) as a starting point. Essex is not on my list. As we know CV-9 was quite unique in her dazzle configuration.

[Mikevpd]

I am building Trumpeter's 1/700 USS Ticonderoga and want to portray her in her 1945 fit. My questions are: did she receive twin 20mm's during her early 1945 refit, and if so, how many?

Thanks in advance for the help, this forum is an amazing resource!

[Tracy White]

Ticonderoga's February / April 1945 departure report stated that the removal of 58 single 20mm mounts and replacement with 35 twin mounts was 100% complete at the time of her departure from Puget Sound Naval Shipyard.

*Edit* Location & count from some photos I have:
Two in each starboard island platform
Port side: Five guns in the forward gallery, unclear on the gallery just forward of the elevator but probably four, four in the gallery aft of the elevator, and four in the gallery between the two quad 40mm mounts that were added ahead of the open 5" galleries.
Starboard side: Four guns in the forward gallery, five in the gallery immediately aft of that, and five in the aft gallery that was behind twin 5" mount #4.
That adds up to 35.

[Mikevpd]

I'm looking for a match, or close substitute, for 1945 Navy Gray #7 or 5-N Revised. Any recommendations?

I know Colourcoats makes that color, but I have not found any in stock on this side of the Atlantic.