The Ship Model Forum

You're the Man, Bruno!!!

Amazing! Your ships are so tiny, and still so full of details! You should send me some of your ships by mail, ha ha ha!

Can't wait to see you building some distinctive vessels of the Roman navy! And I will assist you with detail information. What about "The battle of Actium"?

SvenLittkowski wrote:Amazing! Your ships are so tiny, and still so full of details! You should send me some of your ships by mail, ha ha ha!

Can't wait to see you building some distinctive vessels of the Roman navy! And I will assist you with detail information. What about "The battle of Actium"?

Oh that's great news! I am wanting to get a handle on those big war galleys in particular. Actium sounds interesting... And maybe Kleoptera's Barge as well... You may have noticed my Colossus Dio. I will be attempting to scratch both Roman and Greek Galleys for that build this fall, (circa 3rd Century B.C.) Love to talk with you about what you know of those ships.

Hello Friends. Time for another Carrack update. We are rapidly approaching a climax for this thread. I anticipate perhaps another two months of activity and then I will be moving on to other modeling subjects.

Having made a semi-blunder of the Flemish Carrack's paint job, and considering the extensive and beautiful decals Bruno was so kind to provide for me, I thought I ought to make an effort to go back to the Portuguese Carrack as a subject. Towards that end I began work detailing what I had been calling the 'Heavy Carrack' and giving it some proper-looking superstructures. The following pictures detail that effort, though it is still going on. We are now 23 days away from Nationals and I am very much under the gun to get these ships done in time for the biggest Model Convention in North America

I wanted to make a few comments though about Carracks as warships, and in particular some issues I have been mulling over as I work on these models. I'm sure you all are familiar with depictions such as these from the Anthony Roll: The cannons projecting backwards from the forecastle have been a mystery to many commentators and researchers, to the point where many have even dismissed the likelihood that guns were placed in this way aboard the Mary Rose, or indeed any Carrack of the time.(overlooking the fact that they appear to be trained to 'Anti-Aircraft' Position...) I went ahead and modeled my first carrack, the Beja with guns in that position more out of enthusiasm than any real conviction, and several of you commented on the fact, perhaps wondering, as I have how accurate this kind of placement could have been...

But in reading Dr. Frank Howard's excellent book over the past couple of weeks I came to a startling realization. Remember when I was discussing Carrack combat tactics? In particular the idea of placing the forecastle amidships over the waist of the defending carrack, a sort of 'Reverse Crossing of the T?' Here again is what I'm talking about: Notice how the head of the attacking carrack's forecastle projects well into the space above the waist of the defending ship. In this position, cannons mounted in the forecastle firing aft, and cannons mounted in the aftercastle firing forward would be in an excellent position to fire point blank into the bulwarks of the attacking Carrack's forecastle. If the gunners aimed their mounts outboard, it could even be done without endangering the opposite end of their own ship. So then, if Dr. Howard is correct in his concept of Carrack warfare, the guns depicted on the Mary Rose in the Anthony Roll (and the other carracks in the roll as well) makes perfect sense. They are designed to smash the forecastle of enemy carracks at the point of attack, a sort of 16th Century Close In Weapons Defense. As far as I know none of the archaeologists or Naval Historians have picked up on this (if it's correct) and thus, we might have actually learned something with our little models here... Would welcome your comments on this.

Ok... Well, on with the Build.

The great issue with carrack castles is how to model the arched opening commonplace to so many of the depictions of carracks from that time. The shipwrights of the day seemed a little bit inspired by stone palaces and villas in their creation of the fighting ports for these castles, and many carracks have a deceptively massive appearance to their gun ports. One is (at first glance) often tempted to believe these castles towered five or six stories high, to judge from the rows of arches and ports etc. In particular the diminishing size of the ports, getting smaller higher up in the castle gives a sense of overwhelming massiveness to them, and (to our eyes) contributes to the notion that Carracks were unwieldy and ponderously top-heavy. The fate of the Mary Rose, of course, does nothing to help this impression, despite the fact that we don't know whether she was sunk by a flaw in design, in loading, or in handling.

But be that as it may I was stumped for quite a while on just how to proceed with these details. I had hoped that Bruno would be able to create relief panels for me from PE that I could overlay onto the castles, but in the event he was unable to do this. I think the reason being that the size of the PE fret was too limited to allow for this kind detailing. It's already four times the size of the model itself, as you can see.

So then, how to create rows of tiny uniformly spaced arches and pillars? I had experimented with creating arches from bent styrene rod on the Beja, but had been unsatisfied both with the uniformity and the fidelity of them. The pillars that are associated with such arches would not be too difficult to do, once I had managed to create the arches themselves. My thoughts immediately turned to my old friend, the 1/700th scale IJN Perforated Bar, one of my very favorite generic PE parts. I had been able to cut out a small section of bar to create the three arches of the Stern Gallery of the Flemish Carrack. What about doing the same thing, only more? We could then face the arches with rod, creating pillars and lintels, etc. Ok... let's give it a try...As you can imagine this was a tedious process. The effort of cutting out the bar beneath the holes to create arches was difficult both in terms of uniformity and because it bent and distorted the bar itself each time I created an arch. The resulting arch section was badly bent out of shape and needed careful straightening and flattening, etc.However, once that was done, they conformed nicely within the blank sides of the castle. The fragile bendable nature of the modified bar made it easy to shape into the curves of the castle. The appearance was still rough and uneven, but I hoped that the rod that I would later face the arches with would help to hide the imperfections. However, I needed to be able to create more than one kind of arch, otherwise the ship's appearance would be too monotonous and unrealistic looking...although to be honest, there is always something slightly fantastic about the appearance of Carracks... I think the real carracks themselves had a slightly unreal look to them... a model only moreso.

Hmm... What about these Lion Roar IJN Fairleads?If the 'tongs' of the fairlead were cut off, the remaining part inverted and supported by two styrene 'pillars,' the rivet detail on the bottom of the part might be construed as a kind of 'crowning' filigree for the arch...

A very badly distorted bit of IJN bar. One thinks that it can never be straightened out when it looks like this, but PE is an amazingly forgiving medium. Much more so than Styrene or Resin, IMHO, although, of course it does have its limitations.Comparison shot with the Flemish Carrack. Although this new Portuguese Carrack has a shorter hull, her upperworks are a good deal more massive, giving her a larger appearance.Through the long process of scratch building this ship the forecastle has taken a beating. I took consolation in the fact that I would be able to hide these problems with added details eventually. This is one of the nice things about creating a ship from a documentation-poor era, it gives one room to improvise a bit so that painful errors can be hidden by new features, etc.Beginning to add in Rod Detail now... The appearance is improving considerably. I didn't record this, but the arches had to be ripped out and re-applied because they sat too low in the face the first time around. However, by this point things were shaping up.Continuing with the Port Side now...Head on shot to check for uniformity... Note the ports do not seem to line up on the bottom row... That's a problem. Maybe there will be a way to hide that later...

You can see from earlier pictures that the inboard face of the forecastle was rather crude and rough looking, and would definitely need facing... Finally I had gotten to the point where I could begin doing that.Dry-fitting the arch for the 'horse-shoe deck/bulkhead' On the Flemish Carrack this essential feature was an actual deck that curved down from the forecastle and ran along either side of the Mainmast across the waist. However, by the time we get to cannon-carracks (late-era 16th Century Carracks, which is what this ship will be) the horseshoe-deck had become an arched bulkhead beneath the castle. I learned from Dr. Howard's book that this feature in English is called a 'cubbridge.' Who knew?

However in considering this, I realized that the arch of the cubbridge would be laying almost on top of the solid back end of the forecastle base, where it should be leading into an open space. Dr. Howard said that, although this is never depicted, carracks must certainly have had temporary bulkheads put in place here during combat. However I wanted the ship to look right, and decided I would need to find a way to hollow out the space behind the cubbridge so that it appeared to lead into the interior of the forecastle... Not fun... SURGERY!!!!!!!! UGH!!! Not pretty. Well, at the very least if it was a complete failure, at least I could scratch a bulkhead to cover the mess if I had to... as long as I didn't break the castle off trying to hollow out the space beneath... Someday I'll really have a handle on these kinds of ships and think of much better and easier ways to build them. We'll go at it from the other direction too.In addition to the hole, there would need to be something to fill it, namely a deck... I was not able to precisely match the color of the existing waist deck, but I got reasonably close. Was not feeling confident about any of this at this point.Paint it black. At this point I was hearing that phrase 'the operation was a success, but unfortunately the patient died...' echoing somewhere in the back of my head. Deck piece fitted...Arch piece glued in place...Planking the arch...

Amazing, amazing, amazing...

I have already reconstructions of many Actium ships, among them two of the largest of the battle galley of Antonius and Cleopatra, real floating fortresses.

I also have reconstructions of the smaller vessels of Octavian.

Another idea for your scratch-building "wharf" would be ... fantasy ships! I could give you some sketches, you might like them. What do you think about that?

Also, a question I got is, what are the possible sizes (in scales like "1:72" or "1:700", or in length like "2 cm" or "25 cm")?

SvenLittkowski wrote:Amazing, amazing, amazing...

I have already reconstructions of many Actium ships, among them two of the largest of the battle galley of Antonius and Cleopatra, real floating fortresses.

Wow! I'd love to see pics of your work. You can PM them to me or post them here if you'd like.

SvenLittkowski wrote:I also have reconstructions of the smaller vessels of Octavian.

Wonderful!

SvenLittkowski wrote:Another idea for your scratch-building "wharf" would be ... fantasy ships! I could give you some sketches, you might like them. What do you think about that?

I'd love to see them! Modeling is all about the imagination.

SvenLittkowski wrote:Also, a question I got is, what are the possible sizes (in scales like "1:72" or "1:700", or in length like "2 cm" or "25 cm")?

The most common scale for kits is 1/700th scale. This is good for large 20th Century Subjects... but makes earlier era ships quite small... as you can see. However, the advantage of 700th scale is the overwhelming representation of so many ship subjects. Other common scales are 350th, 200th, 100th, (a popular scratch building scale) 1/92, and 1/72.

Progress... New 'Wales' on the castle, covering up the loss of the old wale that broke free during construction and had to be removed....Head on shot to check for symmetry. Although it is difficult to see in this shot, the alignment of the arch-ports are not uniform on each side. This is quite excusable in historical terms, as they would need to be staggered in reality so that there would be room for soldiers on both sides... however, that probably wouldn't fly in a model contest. Something will have to be done at some point... haven't decided what yet.Overhead shot of cubbridge. This also has issues of uniformity, and I did a lot of light carving, trying to get the two sides identical... Never did quite get it perfect, although it is passable. I am hoping that rigging and the waist canopy will help to hide the flaws, as well as the issues involving what is inside the arch. The technique for modifying IJN girder into Portuguese wooden arches was a partial success... but I realized 90% through the process that there was a much easier way to proceed... Simply cut the girder in half! Why didn't I think of that before!?!? There would be much less deformation of the brass and (hopefully the end result would be cleaner... Also I realized that the arch ought to be in front of, not behind the styrene pillars on either side. So, proceeding accordingly...This is what happens when you cut an perforated bar down the middle with a pair of scissors. However, it was easy to straighten out, much easier than the distortions I was creating by making arch shapes one by one the old way...Of course the scissors don't cut perfectly down the centerline of the part, leaving you with both deep and shallow arches, but this is not a problem as it gives you two 'styles' of arches. The trick is to cut out sections of the bar where the arches have the same depth. In this case I was able to get a stretch long enough that had an even depth to the arches. Proceeding now with the aftercastle ('summercastle' as the English called it at the time) arches, etc.As with the forecastle, I am using a smaller girder with a tighter frequency of holes to create that 'towering' effect that these castles had.Port side summercastle arches went swimmingly... More modified fairleads, this time for the forward face of the summercastle. Did you know that Portuguese carrack castle arches were based on modified IJN fairleads? I didn't either, but it turned out to be a very happy circumstance... it's a small world, you know. Holes drilled in the summercastle, painted black with the arches and pillars placed. These will later have cannons installed.

Sanded down the starboard broadside of the summercastle in preparation for arch instillation... Suddenly it got tricky. Very important to make sure the arches on this side matched the height of the arches on the port side...Some scale comparison shots with the Beja... Having come this far with the carrack, I decided that she needed a name. After a bit of surfing on the internet I decided on "Sao Vicente de Fora" which is the name of a Monastery in Lisbon named after St. Vincent. This appears to be, from what I was able to learn, a very important shrine in Portugal, particularly in Medieval times. If any of my Portuguese friends want to chime in on why this would or would not be a good name for a 16th Century Carrack, I would be very grateful. Also I am a little uncertain as to the pronunciation. Is the 'c' in 'Vicente' like the 'ch' in 'church' in English? Or is it like the 's' in 'saint'? Or is it like the 'k' in keep? Is it 'ViCHente', 'ViSente' or 'ViKente?' Inquiring minds want to know... At any rate, unless my name get's shot down by someone in the know, we'll go with what we have for the time being, and call her the 'Fora' for short.As I predicted, the Fora is quite a bit larger than the Beja. Not just larger, but also more massive and ponderous looking, as befits an Iberian Carrack. This shot with the Beja behind gives something of an idea of how the Fora will look rigged.Fora with the Flemish Carrack. Note the different shape of the cubbridge bulkhead/deck. As carracks developed through the 150 years of their evolution, the cubbridge feature became progressively smaller.Proceeding with summercastle detail. The laying down of the molding on the top line of the lower arches turned out to be a mistake, as it interfered with the installation of the upper arch pillars... That's where I am now, and it is proving very tedious and difficult... however I am soldiering on... Hoping to have both her and the Flemish Carrack repainted by the end of this week. The Fora will be in a diorama with one, possibly two other carracks, with sails, shields, flags and pennants, if I can get them all done in time for Nationals. That's all for now, but more soon!

How do you produce all these fine parts I see being used in these photos here? Do you use some software and a PC to produce them?

A "cubbridge", I KNEW there had to be a proper name!

Neal, those arches are looking sweet, sweet, sweet!

Hey Tom!
Good to hear from you man! How are things over in...?(actually I don't know where you live) As you can see, your work is continuing to inspire me.

I miss your Venetian.

Hope you are doing well.

callen wrote:Hey Tom!
Good to hear from you man! How are things over in...?(actually I don't know where you live) As you can see, your work is continuing to inspire me.

I miss your Venetian.

Hope you are doing well.

Hamilton, Ohio, USA,

Hi Callen, keep up the good work, even my little parts are large compared to yours,

How do you produce all these fine parts I see being used in these photos here? Do you use some software and a PC to produce them?

ARH wrote: Hi Callen, keep up the good work, even my little parts are large compared to yours,

What do you think, Ron? Is it the economy of scale? ...Or the scale of our economy?

I hope someday to have the space and the skills to do the big stuff like what you guys do.

SvenLittkowski wrote:How do you produce all these fine parts I see being used in these photos here? Do you use some software and a PC to produce them?

Hey Sven. Good to hear from you.
The parts I am using in the pics above are a combination of Photo Etch 'PE' and strip and rod styrene. Photo Etch is usually made from Brass, but sometimes from Nickel Steel, thin sheets of metal that are put into a bath of light-sensitive acid that creates a 'fret' or sheet of detail parts which can be used to add details to a model. PE has the advantage of being both bendable and bearing finer detail than what is possible in Plastic. If you scroll back through this thread you will find where I'm talking about my friend Bruno Gire who is a PE designer and was able to make a custom detail set for my carracks from Photo-Etched Nickel-Steel.

Some of the parts I have been using are from that. Some of them are from various other kinds of PE frets created for other purposes which I have adapted to my carrack builds. In particular on this page the arch detail I have been creating above involves splitting a 'perforated bar' PE Brass part which is provided in a generic set for people to use on their ship models. This kind of part is most commonly seen on Imperial Japanese Warships of WWII (notably carriers) which were known to have exposed girders in their structures that had regularly spaced lightening holes cut in them to reduce weight. My technique has been to take this part intended to represent a 1/700th scale Steel Girder, and modify it to resemble 1/700th scale Wooden Marquetry of the kind seen on Renaissance-Era warships. The white bits you see in the pictures are various sizes of styrene rod and strip which I combine with the Photo-Etch to create the desired style. The kind of subject I am modeling here is not the 'usua' 700th scale fare, so some improvisation is needed. Bruno has been a great help in providing numerous hard-to-make parts in his etch set, and yes, he creates the etching master on his computer. Without that my efforts would be a lot more challenging, and less successful.

If you look up Free-Time Hobbies and check out the 'Details for Model Ships' section you will see a good selection of the Photo Etch sets that are available to the ship modeler from various companies. It is an industry in itself quite apart from the kits. I have been known to spend twice the cost of a kit on details for the kit. There is a lot out there to choose from, although, apart from Bruno's set, none of it pertains to Renaissance Warships.

I hope that answers your questions, feel free to PM me if you want to know more about the parts I'm using and building.

Thanks for this great answer, all my questions are solved.

Yes, it all depends on the software your friend is using, and also on the attached hardware. It seems to me that a hardware device is attached to his computer that etches based on the information the computer sends to this device. Am I right?

What software is your friend using? I use also some 3D software, maybe in case i have the same software, I could assist you as well and create plenty new amazing parts for your ships, so the burden is taken away a little bit from th shoulders of your friend. The etching, however, still has to be done on his system.

callen wrote:Hey Tom!
Good to hear from you man! How are things over in...?(actually I don't know where you live) As you can see, your work is continuing to inspire me.

I miss your Venetian.

Hope you are doing well.

Hi Neal!

To be brutally honest, things have been going poorly in the extreme. But, better things are on the immediate horizon, and time with a particular early, early Renaissance ship being a BIG priority.

Tom L. wrote:Hi Neal!

To be brutally honest, things have been going poorly in the extreme. But, better things are on the immediate horizon, and time with a particular early, early Renaissance ship being a BIG priority.

Well that's good news!

Keep us posted!

SvenLittkowski wrote:Thanks for this great answer, all my questions are solved.

Yes, it all depends on the software your friend is using, and also on the attached hardware. It seems to me that a hardware device is attached to his computer that etches based on the information the computer sends to this device. Am I right?

I believe the etching process is done by hand. From what I understand you immerse the brass sheet sandwiched with the glass patterns of the PE art, and then watch carefully to see how long it takes for the extra metal to be dissolved in the acid. If you don't wait long enough you will have 'flash' and/or and incomplete etching, if you wait too long then some of your parts will be eaten away by the acid. But to be honest, I have never done it, nor have I seen it done, this is just what I've heard from different people. Bruno told me that it took him about four years to learn the process before he was able to etch successfully, and that also the arrangement of the parts on the fret is crucial to the success of the etching process.

SvenLittkowski wrote:What software is your friend using? I use also some 3D software, maybe in case i have the same software, I could assist you as well and create plenty new amazing parts for your ships, so the burden is taken away a little bit from th shoulders of your friend. The etching, however, still has to be done on his system.

Thank you for your kind offer Sven. Bruno and I actually work pretty closely together. Between Bruno and Rusty White of Flagship Models, who is the other 'partner' in our little endeavor, I have all the collaboration I have time for at the moment. Indeed, I wonder if I have time enough for what we're planning as it is.

As far as what software Bruno uses, I really have no idea. Bruno lives in France, and we actually have never met. I don't have either the means or the skill for Photo Etch, so I leave that pretty much in his hands. I'm sure if you do a search for Custom Photo Etch on the Internet you can find more information about it. There are a few modelers I know or have heard of who create Photo Etch themselves. You might also post a question on the main forum if you'd like to find out more about it.