Calling all IJN Carrier fans (class comparisons)

[dagovee]

Thanks for posting the much clearer pics Dan. I wholeheartedly agree that in the bow shot it is clear after you look at it for a bit that the elevator is possibly upside down(?) up against the bridge. The second pic from the starboard side, I still having a hard time seeing that large shadow as the elevator.

[Dan K]

What I've always thought strange is that the elevator does not seem to be in the same position in both shots. I've always had the impression that it fell over part way in the interval between the two photos.

[dagovee]

Exactly! Both images are supposedly taken the day after, on June 5, by a plane from the Hosho. One would assume the time frame between to two pics would be very close. I could definitely buy the fell over theory if the shadowy structure were at least similar in shape to the elevator platform and I've read at least one caption that says it was standing upright in that image but no matter how I try, I just can't picture it.

[dagovee]

I wonder if one was taken after the attempt to scuttle with a torpedo? Makigumo fired a torpedo in a attempt to scuttle at around 5am and I would imagine that depending on where the impact was, it could have shifted the structure to the more flat position we see in the bow shot. Anyone know where the torpedo impacts were?

[Geno the Viking]

I've always been totally convinced it is the forward elevator. If you look at the bow on photo you can actually see the painted white line down the center of the elevator.

[Timmy C]

Bent along the centerline, so that the curve you see is actually the rounded edge, with the entire bent elevator standing up like a book propped open vertically?

[Captain Morgan]

I've always been totally convinced it is the forward elevator. If you look at the bow on photo you can actually see the painted white line down the center of the elevator.

Hiryu's forward elevator should have three lines, but the picture does show the center line and the elevator looks like its bent right near the line which is why the side view shows it being deep also. The center portion probably bulged up during the 3 1000 lb bomb hits in the forward hanger which is what collapsed the whole forward flight deck. The fourth 1000 lb bomb blew the elevator against the bridge. All Japanese accounts of Hiryu's bombing have said the bombs blew the forward elevator out of it's well against the front of the bridge.
This was not uncommon in the war. Both USS Franklin and USS Princeton damage reports show elevators blown out of wells. On Princeton both of the elevators were ejected from early explosions well before the torpedo mag explosion blew the stern off the ship.

[Dan K]

I actually think that the elevator platform is missing the forward third of it's structure.

I wonder if one was taken after the attempt to scuttle with a torpedo?

A very interesting hypothesis. However, Hiryu's TROM makes clear that Makigumo fired its fish at 5:10AM while the Hosho plane came by around 9AM. Shattered Sword puts the torpedo hit forward of the bridge by the gangway access on the starboard side. This would be in the area under and between the two 12.7cm mounts.

An observation: Some Hiryu survivors were able to launch one of her 9m cutters, and were picked up after the battle by USS Ballard. If you look at the beam photo, you can see her port side 9m cutter hanging down, which makes it likely that it was the port side cutter that was used.

After Makigumo hit Hiryu with the torpedo, survivors were seen emerging and gathering on the flight deck around the bridge. For some reason, Makigumo chose to ignore then and steamed away. I've always wondered if it was these folks who used the cutter. Or, maybe they salvaged the other one. Just musing.

[Guest]

I've always been totally convinced it is the forward elevator. If you look at the bow on photo you can actually see the painted white line down the center of the elevator.

Hiryu's forward elevator should have three lines, but the picture does show the center line and the elevator looks like its bent right near the line which is why the side view shows it being deep also. The center portion probably bulged up during the 3 1000 lb bomb hits in the forward hanger which is what collapsed the whole forward flight deck. The fourth 1000 lb bomb blew the elevator against the bridge. All Japanese accounts of Hiryu's bombing have said the bombs blew the forward elevator out of it's well against the front of the bridge.
This was not uncommon in the war. Both USS Franklin and USS Princeton damage reports show elevators blown out of wells. On Princeton both of the elevators were ejected from early explosions well before the torpedo mag explosion blew the stern off the ship.

I dunno, guys...I am still not seeing the same "structure" in the two pics...can someone "outline" w/ Photoshop or some other way the supposed elevator everyone keeps referencing in the bow pic? Also, keep in mind that Hiryu had a port side bridge. I think someone forgot this when they posted something about the cutter on the port side.

[dagovee]

I feel like this is an episode of X-files....I want to believe!!!

The more I look at the side shot, the less that area looks like the elevator deck. The shadows are just all wacky compared to the angle the platform is laying in the bow shot. Would someone that can actually envision it there in that shot maybe outline it in paint??? In the end, I guess it really doesn't matter as all accounts say that it is the elevator.

[Captain Morgan]

Maybe this helps.

[Guest]

Thanks for posting those pictures with your outlines/explanation...you have highlighted my case that the "elevator wreckage" looks completely different in the two images. First, the height of the wreckage in the side view is at least as tall as the bridge itself. However, the wreckage height in the side view is much lower. ???

[Captain Morgan]

Thanks for posting those pictures with your outlines/explanation...you have highlighted my case that the "elevator wreckage" looks completely different in the two images. First, the height of the wreckage in the side view is at least as tall as the bridge itself. However, the wreckage height in the side view is much lower. ???

That's an optical illusion because you are looking from ahead and above the ship

[dagovee]

Ok, I am almost certain that I can see the platform in the side shot of the ship and as Dan K alluded earlier it does look like an open book standing on edge with the binding pointing toward the bow and the open part facing the bridge. I have to say that I firmly believe the structure shifted at some point between the images to a more flat position. I am almost certain that it is not in the same position in both images.

[Captain Morgan]

One thing to remember is the Japanese carriers had two level hangers. The elevator was more box like since I think they had two elevator platforms as can be seen from pictures of Kaga on the way to Pearl Harbor. I read this was how Royal Navy two hanger elevators were in the early carrier designs also. It required several moves to take an aircraft from the lower hanger to the flight deck.

it worked like this:
1. Load aircraft on lower platform.
2. Raise aircraft to upper hanger deck
3. Take aircraft off lower platform
4. Lower elevator so upper platform is on upper hanger deck.
5. Load aircraft on upper elevator platform.
6. Raise elevator platform to flight deck.

The RN was not happy on how long it took for this so they tended to keep most aircraft in the upper hanger.

[Guest]

Thanks for posting those pictures with your outlines/explanation...you have highlighted my case that the "elevator wreckage" looks completely different in the two images. First, the height of the wreckage in the side view is at least as tall as the bridge itself. However, the wreckage height in the side view is much lower. ???

That's an optical illusion because you are looking from ahead and above the ship

Maybe...but I have taken that into account and in the side view there is not a lot of distance between the object and the bridge. Based on my geometry, either the angle would have to be much higher (height that the pic was taken) or the distance between the object and the bridge would have to be much greater to account for such a difference in height. In addition, logic tells me that the two pictures were most likely taken by the same aircraft most likely only minutes apart, as I don't think a recon aircraft would be loitering in that area for very long as aircraft on both sides were still very active.

[Dan K]

My two cents -

I don't agree that it's an optical illusion. In the beam photo, the corner of the elevator clearly rises above the the top of the bridge. Which makes sense, because her forward elevator was 16m/52ft wide,(and we know that the full width is intact from both photos and the direction of the one stripe), while the bridge was four decks high, approx. 40 ft.

In the bow on shot, that elevator is no longer standing on is side. The highest point is perhaps half the height of the bridge. I believe it fell over.


Going back to my observation about the forward elevator likely being bisected by the explosion that tore her out of the well (which is also adding to the confusion):

All elevator platforms had had substructures at each corner that were reinforced to hold a set of guides that wrapped around a vertical rail at each corner in the elevator well. The first photo shows what is probably Hiru's aft elevator sitting on her flight deck before installation. The red arrow points to one such substructure. You can see another one to its left under the far corner, and the one forward is just out of view.

Now, looking at the elevator in the starboard beam view, we can again see one such substructure. And we can see the full width of the elevator on the vertical axis. However, there's not enough platform left to the right to see what would have been the next corner. This is a large fragment, not the entire elevator.

[Guest]

Why can't these pics be as clear as the Zuiho sinking...???

[taskforce48]

Another great example of this forum and getting people to look at things differently. Seen these pictures a million times, never noticed that the Elevator moved between pictures. Another thing to call out, one would assume that these pictures were mere seconds apart or perhaps a minute, but the amount of smoke blowing across the Bridge between the two. We can see there is a good breeze blowing across by looking at the angle of the smoke and the water, but I doubt that much smoke would have moved clear of the frame within a few minutes. Here is a feeble attempt to help break down the images. The bow on shot is clear that we are looking at the deck side of the Elevator. The broadside shot is tough to tell if we are looking at the deck side or the underside. We see there is something twisted back alongside the island, so my guess is we are looking at the underside of the elevator in this shot. Somewhere between the broadside shot being taken and then the Bow on, the remainder of the Elevator has fallen across the deck.

FWIW,

Matt

[Dan K]

I just talked to a friend of mine who said he read in a book years ago that some of the Japanese survivors raised a makeshift sail on the deck of the Hiryu after they were left abandoned...??? Could that be the object?

With all due respect, that's not a makeshift sail.


Great job on colorizing the photos, Matt.