What-If LCS Flight II: Littoral Combat Ship Improvement

[navydavesof]

I would hope for at 225 projectiles, more than the AGS Lite 180 projectiles magazine installation that I saw on a website this week for the Arleigh Burke class.

The problem there is that the 180 projectiles is in place of 600 5" rounds. It is a 1 for 1 replacement of the current magazine. LCS-1 has only 1/2 the magazine of DDG-51 to begin with. Even if your Super LCS (with the extra deck) was employed, it would only carry 2/3 the magazine of the DDG-51.

So, that means that your 150m LCS would only carry 75 rounds, not 225. You must remember that this is a frigate type ship. That is only 75 long stick rounds, too. When I went inside the LCS-1's 57mm magazine, I noticed it is 1/2 or less that of the Mk45 on DDG-51s. That means a LOT of 57mm rounds, but unfortunately not a lot of 5" or 8" rounds.

...ala a slow process of transferring shells from storeroom/magazine to the ready magazine and then reload the ready service loader with 75 rounds and there might be several types of shell to choose from and that would require adequate numbers of these shells such a conventional HE, AP, guided HE, AP and include either rocket assist/guided HE and AP or ramjet assisted guided HE and AP shells.

From a modeling perspective, you could easily make another class of ship. The Perry, or Spruance-class kits can afford you a good hull to scratch build a super structure on. You could build the mission modules and stern boat deck, too. That would be a neat build!

As for the 'super LCS', well there is the illustration of the 150 meter variant on the Lockheed website.[qoute]With the extra deck you described, it would be a little shorter than a DDG. Maybe you could cut a plug out of a DDG-51 model and make it what you're looking for. That would be pretty cool, too.

The SCS, before becoming the MCS, showed a 3600 ton up armed LCS with 32 strike length VLS cells, gun, torpedo tubes, Millenium gun CIWS, SPY-1F scaled down Aegis and capacity for two H-60 helos or one helo and two VTUAVa.
Probably a pipe dream installing Mk 71 or AGS Lite on even the LCS Freedom type hull.

This is what I have based my LCS Flight II on. No Aegis or Mk71 though. It's all SSDS, Mk45 Mod4, Mk75 SR, Millennium Gun, TRS-3D, SPQ-9B, optical sights, etc that will make the LCS frame a little more appropriate to meet the stated missions. It is still pretty limited, and every shot has to count. The counter battery seems to be the a big issue.

[Seasick]

Counter battery fire for the USN or any body is the ability to fire guns at the source of enemy fire weather its gun fire rocket fire or missile fire. The radar tracks in bound shells or missiles and determines where they came from, calculate a firing solution and fire quickly. For counter battery fire the target is always soft and hitting the target fast is most important. The 127mm/54 and 127mm/62 are the best guns for this. Rounds exploding in the air 10 meters above enemy howitzers or missile launchers will scatter the crews of the weapons. With a data link multiple ships can fire on the same coordinates.

[Sciquest2525]

The super LCS that I envision adds 25% more waterline beam (42 feet scale to 53 feet waterline beam) and maximum beam grows by 25% (72 foot maximum beam) and lengthens from 118.8 (around 395 feet) to 150 meters or 492 feet and then an extra deck house level is added to allow larger a/c to operate from the ship and an additional deck level is added to hull depth while the deck house forward is moved back some distance while displacement goes up along with draft but you have more space created by repositioning the deck house to lengthen the fore deck, lengthening of the foredeck by a few tens of feet as it's share of the length increase while the increased beam and extra deck level increase availiable space for the magazine. Also, a seperate reserve magazine might be created to feed the ready magazine which reloads the 75 round loader drum. Precision guided and precision guided rocket/ramjet shells add greater effectiveness to each round verses the unguided shells.
IF space (incrased beam, length and heigth) can be made for the Mk 71 ready and a reserve magazine then you might have scaled up LCS able to have 75 rounds in the loader drum, 150 rounds in the ready magazine and 150 rounds in a reserve magazine to total 450 projectiles/charges on 492' by 57'/72' by 10' additional hull depth of the super LCS might be practical.
Note that fewer, an yes, more expensive guided/guided rocket-ramjet shells require fewer rounds per target and thus compensate for their fewer numbers vice greater numbers of conventional so a 450 round or less total capacity is more than adequate.

[navydavesof]

...increase availiable space for the magazine. Also, a seperate reserve magazine might be created to feed the ready magazine which reloads the 75 round loader drum....can be made for the Mk 71 ready and a reserve magazine then you might have scaled up LCS able to have 75 rounds in the loader drum, 150 rounds in the ready magazine and 150 rounds in a reserve magazine to total 450 projectiles...

I am a little confused by all of these extra magazines you're talking about. Perhaps you are misusing the terms? Are you saying that there are other magazines spread around the ship for more rounds to be moved into the magazine under the gun mount?

Just for clarification, the deck guns you see on the ships have a "ready service loader", also known as a "loader drum", right beneath the gun mount that is directly attached to the gun. That ready service loader is in its own compartment/space. Below that is the magazine with the ammunition that directly feeds the ready service loader. If it's the Spruacnce/Ticonderoga type hull configuration, there are three decks below that make up the ship's magazine. They are not different magazines with "ready magazines" or "reserve magazines"; it's just "the magazine" in three stacked compartments. That's how the Spruance-class was going to be able to have 500 8" rounds for the Mk71. The Burke DDGs only have 1 magazine compartment, and that's why it can carry less than 1/2 that.

Is this type of thing what you're referring to, or are you thinking of having other spaces for extra magazines spread around the inside the ship? If that is the case, something to keep in mind is that you will have to move these projectiles, and that is not easy, especially the Paveway rounds. Those are over 300lbs a piece. The detail designs for both the Spruance and Burke magazines required a pretty involved crane system to move the projectiles from their cages inside the magazine and into the hoist. WOW!

[Busto963]

This discussion keeps wondering back to the "counter-battery" or some other type of land attack strike mission set for the LCS.

I continue to find it problematic, not because a land-attack capability is not needed; but I find that any sub FF/DD sized platform to be a bad trade-off in terms of cost-effectiveness for the mission. Dave has hit some major issues with magazine capacity. I have emphasized that the lack of Navy expertise for the mission. To my mind, this is a great attempt to push a capability onto a platform that is never going to be good at doing it.

I see gapping holes in the USN capability to conduct mine warfare (offensive and defensive), as well as almost total impotence in the surface fleet's ability to quickly and efficiently deal with small boat swarms and missile boats.

To me, the current funded LCS mission set matches up much better with actual fleet shortfalls:

• "The LCS�s originally stated primary missions are antisubmarine warfare (ASW), mine countermeasures (MCM), and surface warfare (SUW) against small boats (including so-called �swarm boats�), particularly in littoral (i.e., near-shore) waters."

I note that of all of the LCS concepts, none appear to have been be seriously validated against current and future threats. How for example would this hypothetical "counter-battery" capability hold up against the Iran scenario? Put yourself in the position of the Joint Force Commander, with assets from all DoD, as well as the rest of the USG: how would a shipboard "counter-battery" capability stack up against various options using assets from all of the services? I just do not see the realistic capability that can be installed upon these ships being of great consequence to any Joint Force Commander. It is like the Army proposing to mounting TOW missiles atop HEMTTs (a large truck) - no one will care.

Now a ship (or types of ships) that can deal with mines, solve the SWARM issue, and hadle ASW, all in shallow waters, is an asset.

[Sciquest2525]

I was thinking of a one compartment magazine and forgot that magazines could occupy more than one deck level. I used the scaled up dimensions of the super LCS to expand the availiable space in the magazine and copied the 'reserve magazine' from the Oklahoma CG and the Zumwalt DDG-1000. Oklahoma from Okieboat.com arranged it's Talos rounds in a main magazine with disasembled Talos missiles and boosters separately and the ready magazine with missiles mated to booster and available for immediate loading/firing to the twin Mk 7 launcher.
The site has all you want to know about the Talos system and some info on the it's proposed successor, the 200 nmi Typhoon Long Range missile with smaller size, greater range and more efficent ramjet engine and reduced size component to enable a Terrier sized system to exceed the 120 nmi Mach 2.5 Talos system.
Zumwalt system was proposed to have an additional magazine or rather a storeroom that was not a part of the automated magazine/gun system. It was used to reload the magazine proper.
Okay, you have the 75 round ready loader and a 150 round magazine below with additional compartments in the ship, preferably adjacent to the 'ready magazine' and containing an additional 150 rounds that are transferred from the main to ready and then to the loader for a hoped for total of 450 rounds with 75 in the drum, 150 in the ready magazine and in a larger area an additional 225 rounds.
You could spread out shell/charge stowage into areas not immediately below the loader drum but an efficent means or rapidly transferring shells/charges from reserve or main magazine would be needed. The new Mk 4 40 mm gun mount ammunition supply is arranged with 30 rounds in a ready magazine adjacent to the gun, an intermediate magazine horizontal layout in a circle of 70 rounds with (no deck penetration by gun house) hoist to the bulk or main magazine below deck.
I do not know the layout/operation of these systems, just borrowed the concept

[Seasick]

The 57mm is a really good weapon for the LCS. One mission I can see LCS doing is escorting merchant ships through the Gulf. As a light and fast vessel it can react quickly and get out of the way of larger ships like tankers. Iranian speed boats can be obliterated if needed by the 57mm. and 25mm or 30mm guns. Once through the straits of Hormuz mine detection equipment can be deployed and the ships escorted to a safe area.

My idea of LCS is to operate them in squadrons. The typical squadron would have a LCS-2 as its leader. One LCS-2 with the mine counter measures module, one with the flagship module, a LSC-1 with the anti-surface module, and a second LCS-1 anti-surface module, or a mine countermeasures module.

Also a major roll for LCS is chasing pirates. Have them chase pirates so that the Arleigh Burke class DDG don't have to do it.

[navydavesof]

The 57mm is a really good weapon for the LCS.

Reasonably good? Yes. Really good or best? Not by a long shot. It's "too little" of almost everything right and "too much" of almost everything wrong.

One mission I can see LCS doing is escorting merchant ships through the Gulf.

If you said "as an element of an escort", I would agree, however just sending in a bunch of LCSs...noway jose. One or two LCSs and 3 or 4 Ambassador FACs would be right on.

As a light and fast vessel it can react quickly and get out of the way of larger ships like tankers.

Is that an asset or an excuse for such high speed? If you have to jet around tankers, it sounds like you incorrectly positioned your ships for an escort mission. That is only an excuse for such high speed, not a justification.

Iranian speed boats can be obliterated if needed by the 57mm.

Only at slower speeds and super close ranges at unmaneuvering targets. If you start pushing out beyond a couple of miles, that unguided 57mm gun loses its effectiveness.

...and 25mm or 30mm guns.

Even closer ranges...

My idea of LCS is to operate them in squadrons....one with the flagship module...

What module is that? Do you have a link for that one? I am pretty sure that theater aware C41 is far, far more than can be fit in a CONEX box. Like the rest of the mission modules, I highly doubt a flagship mission module would be feasible.

Also a major roll for LCS is chasing pirates. Have them chase pirates so that the Arleigh Burke class DDG don't have to do it.

Have one very expensive platform do it instead of a super expensive platform? Maybe another platform such as an American Ambassador-class FAC utilizing ScanEagle UAVs is better suited for that?

[Busto963]

The 57mm is a really good weapon for the LCS.

Reasonably good? Yes. Really good or best? Not by a long shot. It's "too little" of almost everything right and "too much" of almost everything wrong.

I would like to see a naval canon in the 3�/75mm range that incorporates the best features of the 57mm and the 76mm weapons and designed around a projectile with improved ballistic coefficient.

One mission I can see LCS doing is escorting merchant ships through the Gulf.

If you said "as an element of an escort", I would agree, however just sending in a bunch of LCSs...noway jose. One or two LCSs and 3 or 4 Ambassador FACs would be right on.

I like the idea of operating in squadrons or better: wolf packs, but am not seeing what the LCS really brings to the table here? LCS does not bring meaning full C4 ISR.

I think a mix of (4) missile boat/FACs and an OHP or DDG would be much better �package� for the mission.

Iranian speed boats can be obliterated if needed by the 57mm.

Only at slower speeds and super close ranges at unmaneuvering targets. If you start pushing out beyond a couple of miles, that unguided 57mm gun loses its effectiveness.

This�

Also a major roll for LCS is chasing pirates. Have them chase pirates so that the Arleigh Burke class DDG don't have to do it.

Have one very expensive platform do it instead of a super expensive platform? Maybe another platform such as an American Ambassador-class FAC utilizing ScanEagle UAVs is better suited for that?

Not to be flip, but not only is chasing pirates off the coast of Africa is not a USN mission, it isn�t even a U.S. mission.

We got into this mess because we as a nation could not have a reasoned discussion about post-cold war military missions, which left the Navy grasping for justifications for it's existence. Maybe the right answer is to re-evaluate what missions we are assigning our force, and to stop throwing away $$$ trying to do things that other countries ought to be doing. This would free up a lot of O&M for actual combat training.

The United States needs to have a very serious foreign policy debate that is grounded in the economic reality of where our trade and interests lies, as well as how much national will (blood and treasure) we are willing to spend in pursuit of those interests. The economic future of the USA is North-South relationships from Canada to Chile, followed by the Pacific rim. Look at where our energy comes from (Mexico, Colombia, Venezuela), look at who are largest trading partners are (Mexico/Canada); consider that Latin Americans spend $0.51 cents out of every dollar on U.S. goods and services, and then think about China and Japan trade.

Now ask yourselves why it is that we are mucking about in Libya other places where we have at best peripheral national interest, and why we had (and still have) 30,000 troops in continental Europe, while the US Army was forced to go to 15-month combat deployment rotations for Iraq and Afghanistan? Does anyone seriously believe that Pacific islanders are swayed more by USN CSG and ARG deployments than Chinese trade and contracts?

The answer is staring us in the face, but no one can state the obvious, even as we ignore the $16 Trillion dollar public debt we have racked up.

I am not arguing for an isolationist stance, but the most recent series of votes on Syria in the parliaments of our European Allies should dispel many, many myths we have come to believe since 1945�

[carr]

..

[Busto963]

Busto's comment is spot-on.

Thanks!

Back to the LCS: as I look at the mission Dave and XXX [Seasick] are looking at (escorting tankers and warships in the PG, and I think this calls for a corvette, probably diesel or CODAG with a 2500 to 3000 nm range. The Visby-class corvette, K130 Braunschweig class, or Steregushchy-class corvette are probably closest to what is needed. personally I would probably eliminate the helicopter hanger on a sub-2000-ton ship.

My vote is a westernized Steregushchy-class corvette:

• (2) 76mm guns
  (2) RAM
  (2) 35mm Rheinmetall Millennium Guns,or (2) twin Denel 35mm guns
  (8) NSM
  (8) single cell VLS launchers
  (24) Brimstone launchers

The PG tailored Wolf Pack would be composed of: (4) corvettes, and (1) FFG or DDG. Optionally patrol boats, LPD and MCM vessels could be added. This would be a very difficult force to overwhelm with small boat swarms or missile boats, and could actually do swallow water ASW, and with MCM vessels, do some MCM.

If you want to go all out the Wolf Pack squadron would be composed of: (2) Absalon class ships for C4ISR with an embarked MCM helicopter detachment (four total MH-53s on the two ships), (1) DDG 51, (8) corvettes, (1) HSV with Aerostat, (4) Elmsdorf MCM, and (1) yacht transporter to support patrol boats and MCM vessels.

[Seasick]

The US can intervene in Syria, but make the situation better? NO.

[navydavesof]

The US can intervene in Syria, but make the situation better? NO.

LOL!!! Where did that come from?! Superduper totally off topic.

[OS1880]

I think so LOL

[SumGui]

Busto's comment is spot-on.

Thanks!

Back to the LCS: as I look at the mission Dave and XXX [Seasick] are looking at (escorting tankers and warships in the PG, and I think this calls for a corvette, probably diesel or CODAG with a 2500 to 3000 nm range. The Visby-class corvette, K130 Braunschweig class, or Steregushchy-class corvette are probably closest to what is needed. personally I would probably eliminate the helicopter hanger on a sub-2000-ton ship.

My vote is a westernized Steregushchy-class corvette:

• (2) 76mm guns
  (2) RAM
  (2) 35mm Rheinmetall Millennium Guns,or (2) twin Denel 35mm guns
  (8) NSM
  (8) single cell VLS launchers
  (24) Brimstone launchers

The PG tailored Wolf Pack would be composed of: (4) corvettes, and (1) FFG or DDG. Optionally patrol boats, LPD and MCM vessels could be added. This would be a very difficult force to overwhelm with small boat swarms or missile boats, and could actually do swallow water ASW, and with MCM vessels, do some MCM.

If you want to go all out the Wolf Pack squadron would be composed of: (2) Absalon class ships for C4ISR with an embarked MCM helicopter detachment (four total MH-53s on the two ships), (1) DDG 51, (8) corvettes, (1) HSV with Aerostat, (4) Elmsdorf MCM, and (1) yacht transporter to support patrol boats and MCM vessels.

Pretty clear from my previous posts that I agree with Busto on this one - so add me to the "Busto is spot-on" crowd (maybe we should make T-Shirts...)

There are many existing platforms which could do these missions in the right mix at a much lower cost while increasing survivability and mission effectiveness.

The current LCS is over-priced, over-tasked, over-worked, over-stressed, under-built, under-armed, under-manned, under-equipped and should be under review.

Other than that it is a fine warship.

[Seasick]

quote="Busto963"
quote="carr" Busto's comment is spot-on.

The current LCS is over-priced, over-tasked, over-worked, over-stressed, under-built, under-armed, under-manned, under-equipped and should be under review.

Other than that it is a fine warship.

Cause: Rumsfeld, Congress. Streetfighter was a lot smaller and was a low cost vessel more like a modern PT boat - mine hunter cross breed. Rumsfeld decided to broaden the mission (the one size fits all, all purpose cost effective B.S.)

Its completely messed up. best thing to do is is stop building them and use the existing ones as best as possible. Five years from now do a review and figure out what went wrong.

[Busto963]

Cause: Rumsfeld, Congress. Streetfighter was a lot smaller and was a low cost vessel more like a modern PT boat - mine hunter cross breed. Rumsfeld decided to broaden the mission (the one size fits all, all purpose cost effective B.S.)

Its completely messed up. best thing to do is is stop building them and use the existing ones as best as possible. Five years from now do a review and figure out what went wrong.

I don't think you can pass this off on Secretary Rumsfeld, even looking at the mission set used to justify Congressional funding (coastal/shallow water: MCM, ASW, ASuW (anti-swarm)), the Navy could have done a much better job with the LCS design.

The real devil is that the fleet cannot point to a cohesive mission set for LCS - many many concepts have been floated, but where is the doctrine, where is the operational concept?

[navydavesof]

Oh Busto, this keeps sounding like a specific littoral NSFS ship! Maybe a Perry-class FFG sized Gearing-class DD. Oh, yes...oh yesssss....

[Busto963]

Oh Busto, this keeps sounding like a specific littoral NSFS ship! Maybe a Perry-class FFG sized Gearing-class DD. Oh, yes...oh yesssss....

Well, we certainly need a frigates too.

Back to LCS, the Navy would be miles ahead by fully funding all of the LCS program RDT&E, but buying single mission MCMs, Corvettes, a few extra LPDs or something like an Absalon class, and FFGs.

[navydavesof]

I think this is the reason that the Germans (Rheinmetal) are pushing the 35mm milllennium gun deployed in 4-gun batteries, and why the Israelis are pushing their rocket based Iron Dome system.

In any case, C-RAM is only part of the defense grid. The real answer to rockets and mortars is to kill the enemy system before it fires, or to at least engage it with air or counter-battery fire as soon as the tubes/launchers are identified.

I think it's really interesting arranging 4 gun batteries. Because things have been so busy around here lately I have not been able to get much work done on the LCS Flight II, but the millennium gun is a big part of its defense, in both a CIWS and CRAM role.

Busto, to your knowledge, how is the Millennium gun loaded? It appears it is only loaded from the rear similarly to how the Mk38 is loaded. I wonder if it could be loaded internally from the bottom.

I wonder if the gun could return to a position where the box magazines on the back of the loading mechanism could be hinged down and reloaded similarly to how Bofors guns do.