Calling all Allen M. Sumner-class & Gearing-class DD fans

[Kazec]

Hello, I am building the USS Southerland DD-743 in her radar picket configuration in around 1945. At first, I assume that she would be identical to her nearest sister Frank Knox, until noticing from the photo below four white objects below the B turret which were not found in the Frank Knox as shown in the above post . From experience such white objects on WWII US warships were expected to be either lift buoys or fire hoses, in this case life buoys seems to be unlikely. However, it seems odd to have four fire hoses at that location. Any information on the objects?

[Rick E Davis]

Yes they are hoses. There were three sets of hoses on each side of the forward deckhouse area (two forward of the door and one aft). Also, there are two sets of hoses on the front side of the same deck house aft of 51 mount. Her sister USS FRANK KNOX (DD-742) didn't have hoses stowed in the port and starboard locations. Other WWII sisters had maybe two sets of hoses stowed there or none.

[Kazec]

Yes they are hoses. There were three sets of hoses on each side of the forward deckhouse area (two forward of the door and one aft). Also, there are two sets of hoses on the front side of the same deck house aft of 51 mount. Her sister USS FRANK KNOX (DD-742) didn't have hoses stowed in the port and starboard locations. Other WWII sisters had maybe two sets of hoses stowed there or none.

Thanks a lot for the information. Do you have photo showing the hoses at the port side?

[Solomo]

I have a FRAM'd 1/96 Gearing model I'd like to redo as my late uncle's ship - the Rupertus during her '52 Korean war cruise. Would anyone happen to have a link to arrangement drawings of her in that period?
I have the Sumrall book with the Kennedy drawing, but the 3"s are offset differently on the 52' Rupertus..
I have some photos but they are all from a distance.
Best regards,
Paul in SF Bay Area

[medicmike]

I am building the USS Haynsworth for a friend whose Father served on her in the early 60's. I know she did not have the FRAM modernization done but am not sure about her configuration at that time. The best I have been able to figure out is that she should have the normal 3 5 inch twin mounts, two sets of 3 inch guns, two hedgehogs, and two triple ASW torpedo launchers. Would she still have had the depth charge rack on the stern and did she still have the hedgehogs? Where would the ASW torpedo launchers have been located? I haven't been able to find any really good pictures of the location of these things. Any help would be appreciated. Mike.

[Rick E Davis]

In "early 1960's", USS HAYNSWORTH (DD-700) would have had as you say three twin 5-in mounts, two twin 3-in RFG mounts, and two Mk 10/11 Hedgehogs, but also would have had two single 3-in RFG mounts alongside the forward stack/bridge wings.

Depending on WHEN in the early 1960s your friend's Father served on her, she would have looked largely like the attached image with a quint TT mount between the stacks.



As you know, she wasn't upgraded to the FRAM II configuration and soon became a NRT unit in February 1964, at Galveston, TX.

I don't have exact info on when USS HAYNSWORTH was upgraded with the Mk 32 triple ASW TT mounts, but the Navsource images dated in July 1962 appears to show that they are installed by then (onboard on both side, roughly the same location where the quint Mk 15 TT mount was located). They are NOT visible in the 1959-60 Great Lakes cruise images. So, I'm guessing she had them installed at an overhaul at BosNSY in 1962 (the reason for her being at Boston in July 1962), maybe early in 1961.

Here is a decent image on a sister unit with the Mk 32 ASW triple TT mounts installed ... http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/pix2/0570532.jpg ..

[medicmike]

Thanks for the great info guys. Her Father was aboard during the Cuban Missile crisis so I would like to model her as she was in October of 1962.

[medicmike]

I have a question that I hope someone can help answer. On the USS Haynsworth, does anyone know if she kept the two offset 3 inch mounts just beyond her aft funnel or if she was modified to have the two center mounted twin 3's? The kit I have has the two center mounted tubs for the twin 3 inch mounts but I have seen pics of the Haynsworth that show a somewhat different configuration. Here is a picture of the offset style that was the Haynsworth at one point. I think the pic is a little older because she doesn't look like she has the 3 inchers back there yet. I am hoping that my friend can find one of her Father's cruise books with some additional pics but right now, I am not sure. Anyone have any info on her that could help? Here is the picture with the offsets:

Here is a picture of a kit of the Henley with the center mounted tubs.

[Rick E Davis]

SO VERY SORRY!!!! I goofed earlier. USS HAYNSWORTH (DD-700) was one of the SUMNER class that NEVER had the twin 3-in RFG mounts installed.

When the USN started to upgrade the SUMNER/GEARING class units with the twin 3-in RFG mounts, they used the same arrangement used with the two quad 40-mm mounts (on the centerline for the aft mount and offset to port forward of the aft mount for the forward twin mount) and located the Mk 56 GFCS director in-between the mounts. During evaluation it was found that the forward twin 3-in RFG mount could damage the GFCS if pointed directly or near aft. So, the remaining SUMNER/GEARING class units to get 3-in RFG mounts were modified to the the centerline arrangement with the director forward of both twin 3-in RFG mounts (on the centerline as well).

I'm not aware, have never seen it in any photos, that any of the first group of destroyers with the early arrangement was reworked to the second group arrangement. It would have been a costly and expensive mod with little gained. The USN just restricted the firing arc for the forward twin 3-in RFG mount.

I don't know what destroyer the overhead photo you posted is of, but it shows a SUMNER likely in the 1960s that never had the twin 3-in RFG mounts installed. She has had the quad 40-mm mounts removed and they were never replaced with 3-in guns. There were thirteen SUMNER's that never got 3-in guns and retained quad 40-mm guns; DD 699-701, 730, 734, 747, 756,, 759, 760, 761, 778, 781, and 857. However, of these DD-699. 730, 759, 760, 761, 778, and 781 did get the FRAM II upgrade in the early 1960's. So, the remaining units: DD-700, 701, 734, 747, 756, and 857, soon went to NRT training and most of the quad 40-mm guns were removed as obsolete (you can see the aft most quad 40-mm mount is still mounted, eventually all 40-mm mounts were removed if the ship remained in service long enough). The depth charge arrangement and ECM equipment arrangement dates the photo after about 1957-60.

So I assume that the image you posted is of USS HAYNSWORTH, and should be her configuration during the mid-1960s or maybe earlier, since I have no idea when her 40-mm guns were reduced or totally removed.

You would be better off getting a kit in the WWII configuration to modify.

[medicmike]

Rick, thanks for the detailed info. Sorry to be so needy but I have another couple questions if you have time. Looking at this picture of her stern area, I can see the gun mount behind the twin 5 inch but I can't tell if that is a twin 3 or still a quad 40. What do you think?

Here is a profile print of her in the 60's. What are your thoughts about this?

[Timmy C]

That's a quad 40: I've drew some red marks to point to the four gun barrels, and circled with blue the distinctive "bump" that sometimes goes on the Bofors mounting.

[medicmike]

Thanks Timmy. I can see it now with my magnifier lol. I am also confirming a couple things with another Veteran who served aboard her. Thanks to everyone who has given me some input on this one. You guys are awesome!

[whaynes]

OK guys, I need some help. Would like to convert a 1/350 Dragon Gearing into a post WW II ship before FRAM conversion. Looking for one with tripod mast and two RFG 3.5 guns. I've found several that look promising, but then find they still have twin 40's or single pole mast. Any names come to mind?
Walt Haynes

[Rick E Davis]

You are asking for a BIG answer to list EVERY GEARING equipped with the 3-in RFG mounts (most with two twin and two single mounts). No 3.5-in guns however. All GEARINGS except for (depending on how you count DD-849) 30-31 units were upgraded to 3-in RFG mounts. This includes the DDE and DDR variants.

First off there were 98 GEARING's, if you include the variants like USS TIMMERMAN (DD-828), which never had the 3-in RFG mounts installed.

USS RICHARD E. KRAUS (DD-849) was the first destroyer to have the twin 3-in RFG mount installed. She carried only one twin and the rest of her AA armament were 40-mm guns until she was FRAM'd.

Of the seventeen DDE GEARING's, only two units had twin 3-in RFG mounts (no singles, DDE-719 and DDE-824. Two GEARING DDE's were completed with twin 3-in RFG mounts as their main armament which were eventually replaced with the 3-in/70cal guns, DDE-825 and DDE-826.

All 36 of the DDRs were upgraded with the 3-in RFG mounts, in at least three different configurations during the 1950s.

That leaves the 43 GEARINGS that remained as "Fleet Destroyers" during the 1950's. Eleven units never were upgraded with the twin and single 3-in RFG mounts, DD-710, 712 (got two twin 3-in RFG mounts when modified as a DDG), 782, 783, 785, 787, 836, 851, 864, 869, and 886. That leaves 32 GEARING Fleet Destroyers that were upgraded with 3-in RFG mounts. The first units upgraded had the two twin 3-in RFG mounts staggered on the aft deckhouse in locations where two of the quad 40-mm mounts were located (and two single mounts on bridge wings), DD-716, 717, 718, 788, 789, 790, 821, 822, 823, 826, 839, 840, 846, 850, 852, 853, 865, 868, and 872. The remaining units had the revised configuration with the two twin 3-in RFG mounts on the centerline, DD-763, 786, 841, 843, 844, 845, 862, 866, 867, 884, 885, 887, and 890.

Of these all had tripod foremasts with the SPS-6 radar antenna (some were connected to SR-6 and some to SPS-6 radars), except for DD-788, 789, 821, and 865 had pole foremast when upgraded with the 3-in RFG mounts, but were subsequently modified with tripod foremasts, and DD-826, 839, 867, 872, 885, and 890 retained pole foremasts until FRAM'ing.

Select which unit you which to model from this matrix. (I made a Excel spreadsheet to keep all this STRAIGHT)

[Rick E Davis]

I meant "STRAIGHT", but auto spell came up with "START" after I apparently miss typed one letter. I wish the hell SPELL-CHECKING would go back to just underlining in red misspelled words.

[whaynes]

Damn, I had no idea there were so many - sorry, but thanks so much. Now to check all these out. looks like fun.
Walt

[whaynes]

Finding good, clear pictures of Gearings in pre-FRAM condition ain't easy!! Finding plans is even harder- lots of FRAM converted ship plans, but dearth of prior versions with deck over superstructure where the 3 in/50cal guns rest. Anybody know a source? Already checked Floating Drydock and don't see suitable candidate.
Walt

[Rick E Davis]

Yes, it isn't easy to get 1950's drawings of these 3-in RFG mount configurations. Even Sumrall's excellent book on SUMMER-GEARING class destroyers, largely skipped over the 3-in RFG equipped configurations. I have scanned quite a few photos of 1950's units from NARA.

I have posted some images in this thread of mid-1950s GEARINGS. It may take some work to go through all the pages, but you may find some useful images.

I'm having internet troubles right now (my 100MB/sec speed is down to 1MB/sec or less) or I would post a couple of overhead views. I know I posted a couple earlier in this thread.

[Rick E Davis]

My Internet Speed is back. It makes hunting through past posts a lot easier.

Here are some images I posted that maybe useful.

... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21795&start=140#p295684 ...

... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21795&start=200#p331212 ...

... viewtopic.php?f=49&t=21795&start=200#p331227 ...

If you narrow down to specific units, let me know and I can see what I have.

[whaynes]

Thanks, Rick. I'll go back through the posts. I've got nothing but time right now.
Walt