Calling all Cleveland-class (CL-55) fans

[whaynes]

Thanks for the replies. Can only locate ten 20 mm after the refit was completed in May 1944.

[whaynes]

Another question about USS Denver. On what I believe is the O-1 level between the stacks, pictures after 1944 refit show two small rectangular structures. The aft one has a small vertical post or antenna. Anyone know what these are? I think forward structure is a vegetable or potato locker.??

[DrPR]

Careful about using the Miami plans. The Miami was a square bridge "modified Cleveland class" ship, and things were moved around on the after superstructure. However, the Miami Booklet of General Plans shows a bosun's locker right behind the potato locker. But it doesn't appear to extend as far aft as the thing in the Denver photos. There was a mushroom vent just aft of the bosun's locker about frame 77. Looks like it might have come from the trash disposal room on the 2nd deck. This would be an air intake. A separate trash burner smoke stack ran up the port side of the aft funnel.

I see what you are talking about in the Denver April 1944 yard photos. The potato locker was between the stacks - the forward "box" in the photo. It appears to have screen vents on the sides.

The box immediately aft with the vertical thing might be a radar shack. The original Cleveland designs were made before radar was invented, and when they had to add radars to these ships they had to find places to squeeze them in. One way was to build a new compartment on an otherwise unoccupied part of a deck. The black rectangular patch on the lower forward part of the left side could be an air intake screen. The black vertical thing could be a vent pipe.

The USS Cleveland blueprints show a small rectangular deck house immediately aft of the potato storage room. The forward half was a radar room for the 40 mm gun directors. This would be an addition after the ship was built because the 40 mm directors didn't have radar originally. The after part of the "box" was a 20mm clipping room and 20 mm ready service ammunition storage.

80-G-384393 22 April 1943 Denver photo appears to show that after midships box behind the four 20mm gun gallery.

Phil

[whaynes]

Thanks David and Phil for the answers. I should be able to put something there that is a reasonable facsimile. Always appreciate the help.
Walt

[DrPR]

Glad to help. The range light recess at the stern will be tricky. If the kit includes the stern lights you should be able to mount them in the hole.

Here is a picture showing what it looked like. Just remember, the opening was not centered in the stern of the ship - the left side of the hole was on the ship centerline.

The white and blue lights were the stern light and the range light. The conical light below them was the wake light.

Phil

[Fliger747]

Looks a bit like Madam Speaker's wine cooler with a Champaign dispenser? Looking forward to this tour de force of Virtuality to transform in to the tangible!

[Walter Sonderman]

Hi, all,

currently I am busy doing the ARA Belgrano from the ISW USS Phoenix-kit, but I am already looking into future projects. As I am only building post-war ships in 1/350 and thought no "original" Clevelands served post-war, however I was -luckily- incorrect: the USS Manchester (CL-83) gave service during the Korean War. I did not yet research in depth, but from some pictures I think it can be built from the VeryFire/Blue Ridge kit with only replacements to the radars and deletion of the catapults (but not the crane). Is that correct?

Cheers, Walter

[maxim]

Hi Walter,
My impression is that Manchester got 3" guns instead of the Bofors:

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/0408324.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/0408319.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/0408322.jpg
http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/0408310.jpg

http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/04083.htm

[Walter Sonderman]

Hi, Lars,

yes, saw that right after posting , however this picture from starboard bow in the 1950's proves she still had the 40mm's then: https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/0408315.jpg. However, proves thorough investigation is needed, as always...Btw, installing 3" would be no issue since Black Cat issued his wonderful items (https://blackcatmodels.eu/en/weapons/29 ... un-x2.html), but I want to keep as close as possible to the kit. Had enough scratchbuilding with the Belgrano

Cheers, Walter

[maxim]

For that fit, the main challenge is to determine how many 20 mm Oerlikons were still there.

The later fit with the 3" guns looks more interesting - especially because of the two Sikorsky HO4S helicopters

[Rick E Davis]

USS MANCHESTER (CL-83), was the last all-gun CLEVELAND class cruiser still in commission at the start of the Korean War (KW). The sisters that were in commission after WWII, were mothballed just prior to the KW. As you can see from her DANFS entries ... https://www.history.navy.mil/research/h ... ester.html ... , had three tours off Korea between 1950 and 1953. During the first two tours MANCHESTER was still equipped with 40-mm (four quad and six twin mounts ... two on the fantail) and a few 20-mm guns (almost none on her second tour). In late 1952, MANCHESTER was upgraded with eight twin 3-in/50 RFG mounts replacing all the 40-mm guns and no more 20-mm guns were carried. Also, her radar suite was upgraded. She was decommissioned in 1956 in this configuration.

In your case of wanting to model with as little modifications as possible, depicting her during one of her first two tours off Korea would be the easier task. Is the CLEVELAND kit you are building a Square-Bridge vision of the class? If not, you will need to replace the Round-Bridge with a 3-D printed Square-Bridge. Also, MANCHESTER was completed with the two twin 40-mm mounts between the quad mounts being relocated to the fantail, which was a late-WWII mod for the entire class. Upgrading to the 3-in upgrade is more complicated than simply changing mounts. The tubs are different and the four mounts at the main deck level are elevated from the deck and overhang the deck edge.

The images on Navsource are jumbled as to "exact" dates they were taken. This image represents her on either the first or second tour to Korea ...
... https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/0408315.jpg ... and this image is suppose to have been taken in 1950 on her way to Korea for the first tour ... https://www.navsource.org/archives/04/083/0408306.jpg ...

I'm not sure what differences there were between her first and second tours. There may have been none or few. I lack "accurate dated" scans of USS MANCHESTER between 1950 and 1952.

Here is a photo of her in May 1952 after she returned from her second tour to Korea and prior to her 3-in/50 RFG + upgrades. From when she was completed, she has different radars on the foremast and her Mk 37 directors. I can only see one twin 20-mm mount, which would have another on her starboard side, on the aft superstructure.

[Michael Potter]

The VeryFire/Blue Ridge 1/350 kits for USS Cleveland and Birmingham generally represent only late-war configurations of early units of this class, CL 55-63, not subsequent units, including USS Manchester, which all had prominent variances to improve air defense.

As I am only building post-war ships in 1/350 and thought no "original" Clevelands served post-war, however I was -luckily- incorrect: the USS Manchester (CL-83) gave service during the Korean War. I did not yet research in depth, but from some pictures I think it can be built from the VeryFire/Blue Ridge kit with only replacements to the radars and deletion of the catapults (but not the crane). Is that correct?

[DrPR]

Rick is correct about the Manchester conversion from 40mm to 3"/50 happening in mid 1953. A dead giveaway is the gun tubs outboard of the forward superfiring 6"/47 barbette. The 3"/50 gun tubs hang over the edge of the hull and cast a shadow that is pretty easy to see. No shadows, no 3"/50s.

However, there are more significant changes between the original round bridge ships (CL-55 through CL-63) and the later square bridge version (CL-64 through CL-103). Both the forward and aft superstructures were significantly different. The change from round bridge to square bridge is pretty evident in the photos. However, the change in the aft superstructure is not as evident where the 5"/38 mounts 54 and 55 were moved aft from frame 88 to frame 92 (12 feet), along with some changes in the 20 mm guns in this area.

The Cleveland CL-55 model kits are particularly unsuited for modeling any of the later ships of the class. There were many differences, especially in the 40 mm gun locations. There are many smaller changes, some that are very visible. And Birmingham was a round bridge ship also. By the time Manchester was built there were many modifications from the original ships, but for the most part the CL-8x were very similar to the CL-9x ships. There were significant differences between ships from different shipyards (they were built in four yards).

I could never find the square bridge blueprints in the National Archives. They don't list them for the microfilm collection, but there may be paper blueprints hiding there somewhere. If anyone finds them I will gladly pay for reproductions!

The USS Miami CL-89 Booklet of General Plans is the best readily available square bridge reference that I have found, and it isn't detailed enough for a really detailed large scale model.But it is certainly good enough for a 1:350 model. The Booklets of General Plans were often produced before the ships were built, showing the general intended design. But there often were modifications added during construction.

For the square bridge ships Brent Jones' collection of "Mighty 90" photos from the USS Astoria CL-90 are far and away the most detailed photos you will find. He has a great collection of photos of every day life on the ship. Manchester was fitted out originally very similar to the Astoria, and the trash burner smoke pipe is in the same location (it was in a different position on some of the Clevelands and this is very noticeable in photos).

https://mighty90.com/

Finally, six Clevelands survived after Korea, converted to guided missile ships. A few others were resurrected and converted for weapons tests. If you want to know more about the Clevelands go to:

https://www.okieboat.com/Cleveland%20Cl ... story.html

Phil

[Rick E Davis]

One note. USS MANCHESTER completed her upgrade with 3-in/50 RFG mounts in October 1952. There is a whole series of photos taken at that time.

I did have NARA scan BGP drawings of USS VINCENNES (CL-64), commissioned on 21 January 1944. The drawings were dated June 1944, but the 1945 upgrades were shown on the drawings, including the movement of the midships twin 40-mm mount to the fantail. I don't know how close VINCENNES was to MANCHESTER in configuration, but this gives a good idea of the differences to the earlier "Round-Bridge" units.

[Walter Sonderman]

Hi, Rick, Phil, Michael,

this is very good information! The first and most obvious thing is that the Very Fire/Blue Ridge kit (I haven't bought the kit yet) represents the early, i.e. round version of the bridge. Either I will have to scratchbuilt (again) or wait until either Very Fire/Blue Ridge brings out a kit with the later configuration bridge or until maybe ModelMonkey (Steve) does a bridge conversion, like he did with the Salem. Also the 5"/38 mounts 4 and 5 which were moved aft is a conversion, albeit a lesser one.
Speaking of the Salem, I do have that kit �nd the extra detail set. First I will finish the Belgrano (it's almost there) and then do some thorough thinking, researching, which is also part of the modelbuilding fun. I might be doing the Salem first, already did th�t research. But, do keep the pics coming... . The idea isn't dead yet: another possibility might be to use the ISW USS Miami CL-89 as a basis, like I did for the Belgrano. But, as stated earlier, I d� want to keep scratchbuilding to a minimum for once....just to see whether I can still built OOB Probably not....

Cheers, Walter

[ModelMonkey]

I was working on a Cleveland class square bridge conversion when Very Fire announced a square bridge kit. Below is a rendering of that design at about 90% complete, still pretty rough.

It sometimes happens that a very mature design project will be eclipsed with the release of a similar product by someone else. Unfortunately, such a release can utterly spoil any sales potential for the 3D model and make the effort spent on the design thus far a loss. To prevent further losses, it becomes necessary to move on to other projects with excellent sales potential, not only for themselves but to cover the loss of the project put on hold. The Cleveland square bridge project is one of those projects.

With a Very Fire square bridge kit announcement, and in sober consideration of the extremely poor USS Salem bridge sales, the Cleveland square bridge project was put on immediate hold in favor of other projects with much better sales potential.

For reasons not fully understood, sales of products for US Navy cruisers and anything Cold War have been very disappointing to say the least. But a sincere thanks to the 3 of you who bought the Salem bridge!

[DrPR]

The National Archives has microfilm 32099 that contains drawings for CL64 (Vincennes) -CL67 and CL82 and CL83 (Manchester). These were the Cleveland class ships constructed at the Bethlehem Quincy shipyard. Since these ships used the same blueprints and were built in the same shipyard, it is a pretty safe bet that they were pretty much alike, with few major differences.

Unfortunately, the 32099 blueprints are almost entirely electrical wiring diagrams and electrical cable and junction box routing diagrams, and are of little usefulness for modellers. The exceptions to this were the propellers, whistle and siren and forward smoke pipe arrangement drawings. The propeller drawings in the original Cleveland blueprints (microfilm 5537) were photographed poorly and half the sheets are totally black. No amount of Photoshop magic could pull information from them.

Phil

[Walter Sonderman]

Hi, Steve, I am sorry to hear that the Salem-bridge doesn't sell well: having the kit myself �nd the (expensive) big upgrade-set I can imagine people might be hesitant, however even the upgrade-set doesn't include a bridge-interior....so I might be tempted once I start the project I know your products very well, as I ordered the Brooklyn-class turrets, MK33 and MK34 range finders, life raft canisters, ammunition lockers, anchors and gun tubs for a conversion from the ISW Nashville to the Belgrano. Speaking from experience, nice stuff!
Regarding the Cleveland, I am surprised Very Fire announced a square bridge kit. Up to now only the Cleveland itself and the Birmingham have been on the market. The 3D rendering certainly looks the part! But I understand your commercial viewpoint.
Yes, I know what you mean, everybody is doing a zillionth Bismarck, Hood or Titanic, but not post war ships. That is also why I am doing post-war only, I do not want to copy other people..

Cheers, Walter

[ModelMonkey]

Thanks, Walter!

I'll go ahead and finish the project and release it. At least it will save those who have the excellent Very Fire round-bridge ship from having to buy a new model if they would prefer a square bridge ship.

The 3D design is scaled from USS Miami CL-89 BoGP drawings with details as they appear in excellent shipyard photos of USS Duluth CL-87.

Miami was built by William Cramp & Sons, Duluth by Newport News. As Phil points out, there are some detail differences between ships common to the yards in which they were built, so the 3D superstructure is designed to include features that make the model very usable to build most square-bridge ships of the class.

The 3D design is not yet complete and some of the features you see in the rendering below will be tweaked to better match features of the actual ships. But it is close.

[DrPR]

I have 14 very good resolution (3150x2557 pixel) photos of the USS Manchester CL-83 that I found on line at NARA. Only one seems to have made it to Navsource.

NY1-1663-(G-S)-10-31-52 through NY1-1670-(G-S)-10-31-52 are dated 31 October 1952 and are labeled "AFTER ROUTINE OVERHAUL" at the San Francisco Naval Shipyard. These show the newly installed 3"/50s and a lot of other modifications.

BS152920, BS152921, BS152922, BS152924, BS152925 and BS152926 were dated 2 March 1955 and were made at the Mare Island Naval Shipyard.

I found these by searching for the Manchester in their on-line photo archives.

The US Navy on-line photo archives has 12 high resolution (6100x4980 pixel) photos of the Manchester from 1948 through 1956. These are MUCH higher resolution than the versions on Navsource.

NH 97180 through NH 97187, NH 96671, NH 79406, NH 97200 and NH 92578.

Again, search through the Navy's on-line photo archives.

Phil