The Ship Model Forum

I would use the flower mesh or the swimming pool leaf net (except of the curved part).

Excellent job all around Jim

Flower mesh looks apropriate for your needs and for your standart!
Season greetings
Rui

hello Jim

very original ..and realized with much talent
very pleasant to follow
cheeers
Nicolas

Thank you all for thoughts and advice

I am still in a 'net ' dilemma ...

THE PE mesh from scale-link arrived-- size is OK ish--but I did not like the thickness ( lack of finesse) of the etching at the junctures

what do you all think?


I Germany I bought some small domestic sieves with a fine mesh to experiment with....
any thoughts?

whilst trying to find an answer to the mesh conundrum issue-

-I started to populate the waist deck with some crew-members

using some elderly Goffy figures

these are NOT as fine, well cast or nice as the L'Arsenal figures--but are a bit smaller-- nearer 1/400.

I shall use some North Star and and some L'Aresenall figures in other areas

Hello Jim
I thing to have a Pe with a finer mesh.( a Reference not marketed)...You need a lot?
cheers
Nicolas

Merci Nicolas

-please post or e-mail a photo with a 1/350 figure if possible?

I shall have to measeure the lengths-
-minor problem is that the mesh needs to run diagonal-
-but it can be made of small parts and joined on the cross-pieces-

-so not an issue per se

There are new tea bags with a extra fine PE-Netting on the market now.

XXXDAn

JIM BAUMANN wrote:.....please post or e-mail a photo with a 1/350 figure if possible?......:

yep! email sent Jim !
Nicolas

Hello Jim,

this is the finest mesh I have seen so far. Comes out of a "pyramid tea bag", that I found already in Germany and England



A similar material I once dyed with cloth dye for synthetics.

XXXDAn

Thansk you all fro your help and replies!

@ dafi-- dumb question-- there is an array of pyramid tea bag manufacturers in the UK--soem of which use paper bags

Now then ...to stop me opening all the tea packets in the local supermarket ( bad form eh!)
which tea manufacturer did that good looking mesh come from?
I am willing to look at and try anything for the 'correct' effect...

something that 'looks' to scale-

-but gives sufficient see-through to not obscure the waist deck...

many thanks all
regards

JB

Mark & Spencers is the winner



Possibly you get the stuff for cheap if they have X-Mess clearance

XXXDAn

These tea-bags sound interesting, less for the contents then for the packaging ...

Otherwise, Jim has a good source nearby: http://wires.co.uk/acatalog/woven_wire_mesh.html. Bob Wilson gets his wires etc. from them.

P.S. I could also do with a source for veeery fine hexagonal and/or octogonal wire mesh

Only a thought,Jim. Have you thought of going into a milliner shop. They are the ones who make
fancy hats for women. They use the finest net known to man. You might even get "Browny" points
for your lady if you buy a hat as well !!.

The ship is starting to look really great!
The figures provide a nice sense of scale already.

With the net, you are very right that you need maximum see-through. This will not only prevent the deck from becoming invisible, it will also ale the net itself look more to scale and make the model more pleasing visually as a whole.
The thickness of the 'rope' is crucial for this, as you know. So you have to find something with the thinnest possible wire, as you are doing at the moment.
Another very important element however, is the size of the 'holes'. The bigger they are, the more see-through. But still they should look they they would prevent men climbing getting through them. I would certainly try to find the optimal balance in this, and not just go for the finest mesh possible.
Is the size of the 'holes' in the real netting known?

The scale-link mesh is way to thick indeed. There should be much finer to be found. It might be just a part of a wider PE set however. Maybe some 1/35th scale tank sets have something useful?

Happy hunting! Luckily you still have other things which can be done first�

Cheers,

Marijn

Dear all!

Thank you for inputs and samples sent!

I have amassed quite a collection of small pieces of mesh of all sorts of sizes...

you may recall the oversize edging to the flowery lace ( Mk1 idea )

link below

download/file.php?id=98103&mode=view




aha!!!

maybe its was not so wrong after all... albeit this sample was somewhat large ad ergo overscale ...

the AOTS Mary Rose book has some quie useful drawings within.. of guns, sails mastes etc

including this one...

Hmmnnn--food for thought!--...off to find a millinery shop nearby


the all-metal tapered masts were assembled, painted and installed-- so as to allow the boarding netting frame to be constructed

i then ( laboriously !) constructed the aft deck anti-boarding netting support frame in situ , using small pieces of wire and styrene strip,
all butt glued minute glue contact surfaces--so ...-mainly using will-power to make the adhesive hold!




The dedicated Scale-Warships ratlines had their basecoat in dark brown--I plan to pick out the footropes in a lighter colour and add soem contrasts


I also painted some older Saemann ratllnes which I may chop about for the upper masts...




then I tried to face down " the elephant in the room.."..

... making the sails

I decided on fine thin paper-- non waxed newprint base in off-white

I needed to do some experiments... not least because of conflicting information.

One book suggests the sails were made of 2ft wide panels- ; this = 601 mm and in 1/400 scale this translates into 1.5 mm wide panels.
this may be correct--but I think that it is perhaps beyond my skill to draw them out accurately and consistently finely enough

the AOTS book has scale drawings in 1/192 scale-- measured off and roughly halved for 1/400
these panel lines work out at 3.7 mm-- for easy maths I aimed at 4 mm intervals

Having made a set of sails with 4mm panels I felt they looked a bit ... err... clunky.

especially when compared to the 'modern' painting by Geoff Hunt of the sinking.
..( which is also based on best guess--albeit perhaps rather more educated best guess..!


so I made another set using 3mm drawn lines( drawn on both sides of the paper back to back )


drawing lines is laborious and slow...

The kit sails in plastic are actually quite good in shape and outline--alas rather thick and chunky

My paper sails were shaped wet-over the plastic sails --using them as a 3D shaped mould -
this was then placed in the oven -on a fan-setting to get them dry quickly and thereby preserve the shape.





I learnt something though....

Do ensure the oven is not too hot...
my moulds for the main and fore-course were rather misshapen( destroyed) by the oven being "a trifle " too warm
( best not ask! )
.... I only wanted some speedy drying!



suffice it to say that 50 degrees C is the correct temperature...

--==> fortunately I had bought my daughter Alexa ( 10) a Mary Rose kit-- so I " borrowed " her sails for future reference...

Ultimately I plan to glue thin wire along the leeches and lower foot (gore) as bolt-ropes, but mainly also to allow further permanet shaping

The rigging will be challenging also-as even on a simple ship like this there is plenty of it!!!

but that is for a bit later still.

I still need to resolve the netting issue!

more soon

Jim Baumann

Great work Jim! Masts and frame look excellent!

Aw, that netting looks very tight! Maybe the flower mesh or one of the tea bag meshes would be the best choice after all? They seem difficult materials to create a realistic sag with however.

I'm very interested in the sails, and in the use of paper to make them, so thank you very much for the detailed write-up!
Do you have to take shrinkage in mind when wetting and drying the paper?

Cheers,

Marijn

Hello all

no real model progress recently , due to my right hand being out of action, unpleasantly swollen., the fingers and joints were puffy, incredibly tender to the touch, downright painful and utterly useless .
could not even hold a pen to sign my name, let alone tweezers-- left handed typing and PC mouse usage
(I am now almost ambidextrous in those anyhow!

being a chap of course I did not go to the doctor for almost month ( Christmas et al)

Doctor says its an infection (?!!?)-- characterised by the peeling skin on fingers ( I did note that.. but...y'know...

anyhow--taking unpronounceable tablets now for a few days--improvement is marked.. so phew!
================================================================================

did however have one success.

found at last 'net' that was the correct size and diamond shape.

My friend Lucy --who collects EVERYTHING ( much like me! ) has a vast arsenal of "stuff"

and was- to my unbounded joy! - able to produce the just about optimal netting pictured below.

Thanks babe! xx

it is a " knit" but is the correct size and in proportion to the model ' looks' right to my eyes...

a really Huuuge enlargement below


I have experimented in colour dying the stuff...( using the flowery waste)

with Tea being the current winner..(! )

will also now also try some diluted wood dye...

will report in shortly once the fingers can clutch tweezers again!

Jim Baumann

One should get into lace-making (kl�ppeln for Jim) ... I have been thinking of trying to do this with the thinnest fly-tying yarn for the hexagonal or octogonal netting under some rails in 19th century ships ...

heheh! kl�ppeln... ( in another lifetime of spare time...!)

wrist is mending...=phew !

Despite none of the drawings of the ship/ rig/ spars in Anatomy of the ship book, paintings, other plans and illustrations in other Mary Rose books ( Marsden et al)
showing the mast tops as NOT visible.... but terminating in the platforms,
-- indeed none of the above publications showed any mast wolding either...

( wolding-- as I understand it-- is sailing ship practice of wrapping rope around a spar in intermittent sets around ( tall ) wooden masts to help prevent/ inhibit splitting--or in the case of long yards to hold the two halves together )

hence I proceeded--maybe with haste (?) --and installed all the masts as previously posted.


Upon the advice of my sailing ship e-mentor , -- who took the step that eluded me of course ( doh!! ) of looking at other contemporary ships of that era ....

( obvious really! )

anyhow he supplied me with some pretty compelling images that spoke for both visible tops and wolding...

The tops were easy enough to simulate, strips of appropriate sized styrene rod glued on the metal mast tops
the banding ( my guesswork ) ( twixt mast lower and upper) was made using decal stripe
These tops were made so that they are only just visible above the crows nests( right or wrong..)
no spars were recovered from the Mary Rose wreck anyhow so...

meanwhile the wolding process...

==> normally this would be done by winding fine thread around the mast. easy enough when the mast is in its pinchuck/ mandrel...

rather harder when the masts have already been fitted to the ship and epoxied in for keeps...( my own fault )

I could just have not .. but that would have been too easy...

I used dark brown decal strip, lightly drybrushed in situ with a coarse brush and some black on ..

the effect is ok and not overscale....


the monotony of painting linen shirted leather 'jerkined crew members ( all of whom will be ' soft-focussed' underneath the netting in the end....
I started adding some of the guport lids
these--unlike gunport lids on later vessels that are often seen opened at 90 degress to the waterline,
Mary Rose had a recessed facet in the hull timber above each port
( this can be seen on the wreck remains in the museum )
so as to facilitate the raising of te port lids to approx 45 degrees.

anyhow--it makes for a more interesting looking model!

The gunport hoist line is reckoned( AITS and others ) to have been operated from much higher up ...==> though that still needs investigating... !! ?

( lots of frapping lines and long runs over and around other projections... hmnnnn )