Calling all Royal Navy E-class fans

[RNfanDan]

The photo of Express in her full minelaying configuration is the first I've yet seen in detail, of an E-class destroyer so rigged. To offset the topweight of her full mineload--which was carried on a balanced arrangement of two long sets of minerails port and starboard, extending from about midships to the area of the conveyor blisters at the stern--it was necessary to land both A and Y main-armament mountings and both sets of torpedo tubes.

This laborious process left the ships highly vulnerable in action, but they were quite successful, particularly in the earlier days of the war. Each ship was fitted with shaft-and-gear apparatus that drove two conveyors located at the stern, under blisters which they carried throughout their careers. The minerails were stowed internally and removed through detachable deck plates when needed, being bolted into place on the "iron deck".

The mines were mounted on trolleys that rolled atop the rails, drawn astern to the conveyors and dropped into the sea. A system of cables and tackle were fitted to each row of mines at the forward ends, the cables being winched in synchronization with the speed of the ship and spacing-pattern of the field being laid, using a fairly sophisticated mechanical measurement and timing system.

The whole process makes for a fascinating read, especially with regard to the taunt-wire system of navigating, executing and placing each row/field of mines. In the days before satellites and GPS, it was quite an innovative system, and is explained in great detail in an excellent book by Peter C. Smith, titled "Into the Minefields".

The dangerous nature of these minelaying operations is evidenced by the above photo of a bow-less Express, and further illustrates both the versatility and hardiness of these classic British destroyers.

Thanks for the eye-candy, Mr. Batchelor!

[ar]

I mean Express, not Electra.

I wondered when you would spot this thread

With the 20mm comment I assume you mean Electra?
I will go and delve into my Electra book and find when Cain says they were fitted.

What ports could Oerlikons have be fitted in?
After London and before Java she called into the following ports I have so far been able to ascertain in this order: Sheerness, Scapa, Archangel, Scapa, Rosyth, Scapa, Greenock, Freetown and Capetown, Singapore, Tangjong Prick and Sourabaya.

Furthermore the bofors question which was raised with Electra, have you ever been able to find out where PoW had hers fitted?
Of course Electra escorted her to the Far East is it too much to suggest they both had the army bofors fitted in the same port?

[Laurence Batchelor]

Thank you Dan though I nearly hurled my lunch on seeing your SIG

Also a book I've just finished reading HMS Intrepid: A Memoir by George Mack also explains the minelaying conversion for these ships.
There are also some photos in this book of the extra derricks fitted etc.

Also Dan, note they did have both sets of torpedo tubes landed, but the aft one was for a 3-inch WW1 HA gun as with most other A-I's after Dunkirk.

[Laurence Batchelor]

I mean Express, not Electra.

Zooming into that first photo of Express again after she's had a new bow fitted.
Correct me if I'm wrong I can see the heavy support pillar under the bridge wings.
This is normally fitted when Oerlikons are installed on the bridge wings.
Of course she may be fitted for and not with this mounting?

Is this photo 1942? She was only reccommissioned again by about Oct 1941.
This increases the likelyhood of it being 1942.
If so this in turn puts her into the oerlikon fitting window no?

[ar]

Young Laurence,
Go over what you have just written; recommisioned about 10/41. Do you mean 41 or 42?

I mean Express, not Electra.

Zooming into that first photo of Express again after she's had a new bow fitted.
Correct me if I'm wrong I can see the heavy support pillar under the bridge wings.
This is normally fitted when Oerlikons are installed on the bridge wings.
Of course she may be fitted for and not with this mounting?

Is this photo 1942? She was only reccommissioned again by about Oct 1941.
This increases the likelyhood of it being 1942.
If so this in turn puts her into the oerlikon fitting window no?

[Laurence Batchelor]

Sorry juggling 3 things at once here, and I wasn't crystal.

Express has her bows blown off in August 1940.
14-months for repair means she recommisioned about Oct 1941.

This makes the 1st photo more likely to be 1942 as for the laws of probabilty there is only 2 months of wartime service for the ship in 1941 it could be taken in.
Adding to this Nov and Dec are normally less active months for a destroyer generally speaking, thats why so many went in for major refits at that time.

Therefore this increases the likehood it might be a 1942 photo as there's 12 months of that year it could be taken in.

I'm merely hedging my bets to what I consider more likely.

[ar]

Then for more than one reason the photo is 1941, not 42.

Sorry juggling 3 things at once here, and I wasn't crystal.

Express has her bows blown off in August 1940.
14-months for repair means she recommisioned about Oct 1941.

This makes the 1st photo more likely to be 1942 as for the laws of probabilty there is only 2 months of wartime service for the ship in 1941 it could be taken in.
Adding to this Nov and Dec are normally less active months for a destroyer generally speaking, thats why so many went in for major refits at that time.

Therefore this increases the likehood it might be a 1942 photo as there's 12 months of that year it could be taken in.

I'm merely hedging my bets to what I consider more likely.

[ar]

Then for more than one reason the photo is 1941 and not 42.

Sorry juggling 3 things at once here, and I wasn't crystal.

Express has her bows blown off in August 1940.
14-months for repair means she recommisioned about Oct 1941.

This makes the 1st photo more likely to be 1942 as for the laws of probabilty there is only 2 months of wartime service for the ship in 1941 it could be taken in.
Adding to this Nov and Dec are normally less active months for a destroyer generally speaking, thats why so many went in for major refits at that time.

Therefore this increases the likehood it might be a 1942 photo as there's 12 months of that year it could be taken in.

I'm merely hedging my bets to what I consider more likely.

[Laurence Batchelor]

I don't see it, though I'm all ears.
Are you going by the early radar she still carries?

I was under the impression that most A-I's got Oerlikons from about December 1941 onwards?
With many not getting anything until well into 1942 as capital ships took priority, then the J,K,N, Tribals and then the older destroyers as a general pattern.

Or was it far more ad hoc than that?

[ar]

Will go over it tomorrow.

I don't see it, though I'm all ears.
Are you going by the early radar she still carries?

I was under the impression that most A-I's got Oerlikons from about December 1941 onwards?
With many not getting anything until well into 1942 as capital ships took priority, then the J,K,N, Tribals and then the older destroyers as a general pattern.

Or was it far more ad hoc than that?

[Laurence Batchelor]

Will be out for most of tomorrow, got meetings to attend.

But I will be in the evening UK time, what ever that equates to for the East Coast.

[Michael]

All:

A newly posted photo of HMS Havoc on the HMS Barham website sheds new light on the camo scheme worn by Havoc in 1941. Alan Raven published a sketch of this unique scheme in RN Camouflage Vol. 1, on page 49, but the sketch lacked details concerning the pattern toward the stern. This newly published photo clarifies this issues, somewhat. The photo can be seen at:

http://www.hmsbarham.com/images/ship/ship22.jpg

Now, this once again begs the question: what was the difference between the E/F and G/H classes? The latter were about 6 feet shorter than the former (323ft versus 329 feet) and were identical abeam; does anyone know where the 6 feet was taken from--and therefore, what it would take to convert the Tamiya E class destroyer to a G/H class ship?

Any help would be appreciated!

Best wishes,

Mike

[Michael]

All:

Some weeks ago I asked if anyone had a photo of the bridge of an E/F class destroyer. I've still not found one, but I did find a photo of the bridge of an I class destroyer, HMS Inglefield, in David A. Thomas, With Ensigns Flying: The Story of H. M. Destroyers at War, 1939-1945 (London: William Kimber, 1958). This photo might help those desiring to detail the bridge of their Tamiya E class destroyers. Unfortunately, because the photo appeared in a copyrighted publication, I cannot post a scan of the photo here, but for those who can obtain this book from their local public library, I hope this helps.

Best wishes,

Mike

[Laurence Batchelor]

Its Havock rather than Havoc Mike, sorry to nit pick

I think the 6ft in length was taken out of the machinery spaces.

[Graham Boak]

From looking at the kit, the plans of Glowworm in Roberts� British Warships of WW2, and an old Airfix mag article, I believe that the difference in length (F to G) is mainly in the fo�csle. Texts speak of shorter machinery spaces, which no doubt is right, but it does seem that these classes shared a common rear from the fo�csle break, at least as far as the spacing of the superstructures and weapons. Shortening the kit by taking out a section between the bridge and B gun would achieve the change without too much difficulty or subsequent re-adjustments.

I do stress that this is only an estimate, and would appreciate informed comment from others.

This does not apply to leaders, of course, which do have a larger still fo�csle but also apparently additional space between the funnels, aft of the funnel and at the stern. Conversion would be a more awkward job, and Tamiya�s �tubs� for the guns and neat slots for the davits wouldn�t help. Clever and suitable for the kit �as is�, but getting in the way of conversions.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Graham now I have some spare time, I will now start to sort out some things for you, sorry for the delay.

Right then to complete Express here's her TROM for your digestion.

Information & Tabular Record of Movement (TROM) For HMS Express H67

HMS Express was an "E" Class Fleet Destroyer ordered from Swan Hunter at Wallsend under the 1931 Programme on 1st November 1932
and laid down on 4th March 1933.
The ship was launched on 29th May 1934 as the 8th RN ship to carry the name, introduced in 1695 and previously borne by a destroyer built in 1897 and sold in 1921.
Ships of this Class ware designed for use as minelayers and could easily be converted to that role from Fleet duties. Her build completed on 2nd November 1934 and she commissioned for service in the Home Fleet with the 5th Destroyer Flotilla four days later.
Before the outbreak of war the ship spent some periods on detached service in the Mediterranean because of the Abyssinian crisis and an outbreak of fire in a Boiler Room resulted in two months repair during October 1937.
Although she was intended for use as a Boys training ship in 1939 this was not implemented because of a lack of personnel. She attended the Review of the Reserve Fleet in August 1939. In 1943 this destroyer was transferred to the Royal Canadian Navy and renamed HMCS GATINEAU.

Her Battle Honours

DESIRAOE 1806
QUADALOUPE 1808
MARTINIQUE 1809
DUNKIRK 1940

Her Heraldic Data

Badge: On a Field Blue, a figure of Mercury Gold.

Her Moto

Celeriter: ' I strike quickly'.

War Service

1939

September - Converted for minelaying duties at Portsmouth and war complement joined.
7th - Worked up to be operational as a minelayer.
9th - Passage to Immingham to take-up war station. Embarked mines.
10th - Laid minefield in Heligoland Bight with sister destroyer HMS ESK (Operation AA).
12th - Laid further minefield with HMS ESK in Heligoland Bight (Operation QQ).

October - Minelay operations off Dutch coast suspended.
Paravanes fitted

November
17th - Deployed for minelay in East Coast Barrier (Operation RG)
29th - Completed Operation RG.

December 12th
15th - Joined 20th Destroyer Flotilla on formation.
Based at Harwich with mines to be embarked at Immingham.
15th - Escorted HM Auxiliary Minelayer PRINCESS VICTORIA during minelay in the East Coast Barrier off Harwich (Operation OF).
HM Destroyers ESK, BRAZEN and BOREAS deployed to provide cover.
22nd - Escorted HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA for second part of Operation GF with HM Destroyers ESK, CODRINGTON and BRAZEN.

1940

January - Deployed with Plotialls at Harwich.

February
9th - Escorted HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA during lay of Dummy Mines along East Coast Barrier. (Operation LD2 and LD3)
12th - Operations LD2 and LD3 completed.
18th - Escorted HM Auxiliary Minelayer TEVIOT BANK during lay of Deep minefield in Galloper area (Operation DML8).

March
3rd - Laid minefield near Horns Reef Heligoland Bight with HM Destroyers ESK, IMPULSIVE and ICARUS (Operation 1E1)
5th - Deployed for anti-submarine patrol A/S in Moray Firth area.
21st - Escorted HMS TEVIOT BANK and HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA during laying of deep field in Moray Firth with Flotilla (Operation P A4).
22nd - Damaged in collision with trawler and taken in hand at Hartlepool for repair.

April - Under repair.
24th - On completion rejoined Flotilla.
27th - Nominated with HMS ESK and HMS INTREPID to extend Vest Fjord minefield. Narrow Gauge mine rails and H2/VHI MINE units to be used.
28th - Changed mine rails and embarked mines at Immingham for Operation 2MB
30th - Rejoined Home Fleet when Operation ZMB cancelled.
Returned to lmmingham to revert to Broad Gauge mine rails.

May
6th - Returned to Scapa Flow for minelaying duty off Norway.
Operation cancelled for lack of air cover.
10th - Laid minefield in Heligoland Bight (Operation ZMC).
On arrival in Humber escorted HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA during laying of minefield off Dutch coast (Operation CBX1).
12th - Laid Shallow minefields in East Coast Barrier with HM Destroyers ESK and INTREPID. (Operations BS3)
14th - Continued East Coast Barrier minelay (Operation BS4).
16th - Deployed with Flotilla to lay minefield off Dutch coast (Operation CBX3). (Note: In July 1940 this claimed sinking of three German minesweepers.)
18th - Joined HMS PROCESS VICTORIA with Flotilla to continue East Coast Barrier lay (Operation BS5).
Escorted PRINCESS VICTORIA to south of Humber on return passage.
After HMS PRINCESS VICTORIA hit a mine and sank off estuary remained in area to warn shipping of new mine danger.
21st - East Coast Barrier minelaying continued with Flotilla (Operation BS aeries).
(Operation BS6)
23rd - Operation BS7.
25th - Operation BS8
27th - Operation BS9 (Excluding HMS IMPULSIVE).
Despatched to assist in Dunkirk evacuation (Operation DYNAMO). Passage to Dover.
29th - Towed French Destroyer JAGUAR to Dover.
30th - Wore flag of Admiral Hike-Walker and carried 1,431 troops to Dover during two trips.
31st - Made three more trips to Dunkirk.
Under attack by German aircraft and sustained serious damage.
(Note: In all carried 3,491 troops to Dover from France).

June
2nd - Under repair
15th - Rejoined Flotilla on completion.
16th - Escorted HMS TEYIOT BANK, HM Coastal Minelayer PLOVER and ships of Flotilla during East Coast Barrier minelaying Operation (Operation BS15)
29th - Deployed for East Coast Barrier minelay (Operation BS19)

July
2nd - Deployed for East Coast Barrier minelay (Operation BS20)
11th - Deployed for East Coast Barrier minelay (Operation BS23)
17th - Laid experimental field with HMS IMPULSIVE to test operation of MK XX mine. (Operation BS24)
18th - Repeated Operation BS24 (Operation BS25)
21st - Laid nine field in Galloper area with Flotilla except HMS IVANHOE(Operation BS26).
27th - Continuation lay of BS26 with Flotilla except HMS IVANHOE (Operation BS28).

August
2nd - Laid extension of East Coast Barrier with US PLOVER, Dutch minelayer VAN DER ZAAN and HM Destroyers ESK, ICARUS, INTREPID and IMPULSIVE (Operation BS30).
6th - Laid Minefield off Belgian coast With ships of Flotilla escorted by MTB's (Operation CBX4).
9th - Laid Anti-invasion minefield in Straits of Dover with ships of Flotilla (Operation MP(a)).
11th - Continuation of Anti-invasion Minefield (Operation MP(b)).
27th - Escorted HMS TEVlOT BANK for lay in East Coast Barrier with HMS ESK and HMS lCARUS (Operation BS35)
31st - With Senior Officer of 20th Flotilla embarked sailed with HM Destroyers IVANHOE, INTREPID, ICARUS and ESK for minelaying off Belgian coast. (Operation CBX5).
After enemy report CinC Nore ordered ships to engage after Jettison of mines. Entered German minefield and exploded mine in position 53.25N 3-48E.
Forward structure completely destroyed.
HMS IVANHOE went alongside and was disabled after detonating another mine.
Ship able to make stemway under own power untill taken in tow by HM Destroyer KELVIN. Tow fouled and re-established by HM Destroyer Destroyer JUPITER until tugs arrived to complete towing operation to Hull.

September
3rd - Arrived at Hull in tow.
(Note: 57 of the ships company were lost and a further 9 were captured and became POW).
Captain J Bickford (Captain D20) died later in hospital and was buried at sea.
HMS ESK sank and HMS IVANOE had to be scuttled following this disastrous operation which claimed nearly 300 lives.
The subsequent Board of Inquiry at Hull concluded that it was unavoidable.
Tow to Chatham for repair including rebuilding forward structure.

October to December
Under repair at HM Dockyard, Chatham.

1941

January to August
Still Under repair.


September
Re-commissioned and carried out post refit trials.

October
3rd - Refit completion date.
Passage to Scapa Flow to rejoined Home Fleet and allocated for service with Force Z in Singapore.
25th - Sailed from Clyde as escort for HM Battleship PRINCE OF WALES with HMS ELECTRA.

November
5th - At Freetown.
18th - Sailed from Capetown.
28th - Arrived at Colombo after calls at Mauritius and Gan for refueling.
29th - Joined by HM Battlecruiser REPULSE and HM Destroyers ENCOUNTER and JUPITER
Took passage from Colombo to Singapore with ships of Force Z.

December
3rd - Arrived at Singapore.
8th - Sailed from Singapore to attack Japanese warships reported off Kota Baru.
10th - In action with Japanese aircraft during attacks on Force Z in Gulf of Thailand.
Took part in rescue of around 1,000 survivors from HMS REPULSE and HMS PRINCE OF WALES.
11th - Returned to Singapore and deployed on local convoy defence.
24th - Carried out lay of 18 ground mines in approaches to Penang.

1942

January
Deployed with China Force at Singapore for escort of convoys.

February
6th - Fire in boiler room caused damage to services.
Repairs undertaken at Singapore.
(Note: This repair prevented deployment with allied fleet in Java Sea).
On completion continued convoy defence work until capture of Singapore.
Escorted evacuation convoy SUI to Fremantle with HM Australian Destroyers NIZAM and VAMPIRE.

March
Transferred to East Indies Fleet based in Ceylon.
(Note: During this period ship operated despite condition of the Boiler Room due earlier fire damage which was not completely repaired).
Nominated for completion of repair in South Africa.

April
Passage to Simonstown
Taken in hand by HM Dockyard, Simonstown for repair and refit.

May
Under repair.

June
26th - On completion resume duties with Eastern Fleet.
27th - Joined 12th Destroyer Flotilla for Indian Ocean convoy defence and screening duty.

July
to August - Indian Ocean deployment in continuation.

September Nominated for support of planned landings to complete occupation of Madagascar.
10th - Escorted HM Aircraft Carrier ILLUSTRIOUS during final phase of allied occupation of Madagascar (Operation STREAM).
On release from STREAM resumed Flotilla convoy defence duties

October to December
Indian Ocean deployment in continuation.

1943

January
Indian Ocean deployment in continuation.
Nominated for return to UK.
Future deployment after refit under consideration.

February
Passage to Liverpool from Simonstown for refit.

March
Paid off and prepared for refit in commercial shipyard.
Nominated for transfer to Royal Canadian Navy on completion
12th - Taken in hand for refit.

April - Under refit
to
May

June
2nd - Refit completion date.
3rd - Transferred to RCN and re-commissioned as HMCS GATINEAU for convoy defence duties
15th - Formally presented to Canada as a gift.

Service as HMCS Gatineau

Took passage for work-up.

July
On completion of work-up joined 2nd Canadian Escort Group for Atlantic convoy defence.

August
Deployed in NW Approaches for convoy defence with Group.


September.
Deployed with HM Destroyer ICARUS, HM Frigate LAGAN, three corvettes and a trawler as escort, for convoy ON202 during Atlantic passage
Merged with convoy ONS18 on Admiralty diversion, to avoid U-Boat attacks.
(Note: Combined escort then also included HM Destroyers ESCAPADE, KEPPEL and ST CROIX(RCN), HM Frigates TOWEY and ITCHEN, eight Corvettes and a trawler from Escort Groups B3 and C9 of ONS 18.).
19th - Under attacks by LEUTHEN U-Boat Group during which HMS LAGAN was damaged beyond economic repair by an acoustic homing torpedo (T5).
20th - HMCS ST CROIX and HMS ITCHEN were sunk as well as major damage in HMS ESCAPADE after accidental explosion of mortar bombs from the HEDGEHOG mounting.

October to December
Atlantic deployment with Group in continuation.

1944

January to February
Atlantic convoy defence in continuation.

March
Deployed with HM Destroyer ICARUS, HM Canadian Destroyer CHAUDIERE, HM Canadian Frigate ST CATHERINES, HM Canadian Corvettes FENNEL, CHILLIWACK and HM Corvette KENILWORTH CASTLE in support of passage of Convoy HX280.
4th - Convoy under threat of attack by U-Boats
After radio transmissions intercepted by HMS ICARUS obtained ASDIC contact and began submarine search operation with ships of Support Group.
5th - Search operation continued with depth charge and HEDGEHOG attacks by ships of the escort and Support Group.
Submarine surfaced despite certainty of damage.
6th - U774 surfaced after being dived for over 24 hours.
HMCS CHILLJWACK and HMCS FENNEL attempted to board submarine but whaler capsized.
Took part in rescue of whalers crew and survivors from U744 which scuttled.
Submarine sank in position 52.01N 22.37W. 40 of her crew survived.

April
Atlantic deployment in continuation.

May
Transferred to 11th Escort Group based at Londonderry for support of the planned allied landings in Normandy (Operation NEPTUNE).

June
Transferred to Plymouth for anti-submarine operations in Bay of Biscay and English Channel.
26th - In action with E-Boats off Selsea BUI in defence of coastal convoy.
On release from NEPTUNE resumed Atlantic convoy defence with Group.

July
Atlantic convoy escort in continuation.
Nominated for refit in Canada and took passage to Halifax.

August
3rd - Taken in hand for refit at Halifax

September. to December
Under refit.

1945

January
Under refit.

February
Post refit trials.
16th - On completion prepared for return passage to UK for work-up. Passage to Tobermory.


March
On completion of work-up deployed on convoy defence in UK coastal waters.
(Note: Increased U-Boat attacks were being carried out by SCHNOREL fitted dubmarines in UK coastal waters and Atlantic convoys were re-routed via English Channel after removal of air threat from French airfields.

April
Coastal convoy defence in continuation.

May
Returned to Canada after VE Day.

June
Deployed locally based at Halifax.

July
11th - Taken in hand for repair at Halifax.
19th - Resumed duties at Halifax.

August
Transferred to Esquimault on West coast of Canada.

Post War Notes

HMCS GATINEAU was paid off on 10th January 1946 and placed in reserve at Esquimault.
The ship was put on the Disposal List in April 1947 and sold to Capital Iron and Steel Metals, Victoria, British Columbia.
She was scuttled in 1956 at Royston, BC for use as part of a breakwater.

[Laurence Batchelor]

ar is it due to her not having a hedgehog fitted yet and 'A' mounting landed?

Are you holding out on me with juicy precise armament refit dates?

[ar]

Can you post the rest of movements for Express please?

[ar]

The photos probaly taken in late 1941 in home waters or en-route to the East.
The large repair and refit would give you the type 286 radar and the Peter Scott camouflage but, no type 285 radar. Single 20mm in the bridge wings extended to the face line of the bridge, mavbe? Need close examination of the picture.
Refit at Simonstown had the type 286 removed and replaced with type 290 or type 291, probably the former.
Single 20mm definately fitted at fore end of bridge wings by this time (April 1942). 0.5" mgs still fitted amidships. Have photo to prove.
Still with four 4.7" guns. No ASW fit, this would be in line with service in the Indian Ocean area.

Need author to construct volume on RN destroyer appearence in WW11.
The subject has only been PICKED AT over many years.

I doubt very much that Norman will give the sort of data that modellers want in his next destroyer volume. The same applies to the USN in WW11.

[Laurence Batchelor]

The delay was it takes me a a while to type a lengthy post like that and I hit submit a few times along the way so I don't loose any data.

Are these refit dates your thinking from looking at the TROM which of course are general to many A-I's
Or do you have actual archival sources on Express's wartime modifications?
Does this make it any easier? sorry its not of the best quality...