HMS Prince of Wales

[EJFoeth]

I don't know anything about Singapore regarding POW? One of the nicer pics I posted of the starboard stern of POW is from Art Nicholsons book. He found the image in the archives of South Africa; apparently there are more images and on SN he wrote he was trying to obtain more. However, Cape Town was not captured by the Japanese and I do not know what was destroyed by the British?

I also noticed that the forward HACS looks blueish. This is indicated on some camouflage schemes so how did they found out? With some excellent images only reproduced by Raven or Burt and nowhere else, I do wonder what else is out there.

[dick]

(Glad we are entertaining you Tracy. You are lucky to be only debating between two colours on your favourite subect!)

My greenish C is mainly aimed at the area near the catapult though.

I agree that the amidships area under the catapult/aircraft handling deck is slightly ambiguous/mottled in the colour photo. But it seems less so in the B&W photos? I am hoping to get a clear black and white photo of that area in the near future which will hopefully settle it. Can we leave that area for the time being?

Color B matches well with B5 on the color image (I will hold to this for a while )

Obviously I hope to shift you from this! As you can see from the colour photo of the model, a panel labelled B in your colour photo seems darker even than WEM MS2 and lacks the blue hue of B5. The other problem you have, if B=B5 and D =MS3, what candidates do you have for the intermediate tone C?

The port quarter was the other angle I photographed on the model in a 5 colour scheme:

combo.JPG

The area that interests me here is the waterline panel "Q" under the aft director, the one enclosed by a curved dark A border in this copy of your labeling of this area.

ejf pq l.JPG

In various photos above, and in the movie�

detail pq.JPG

it looks as if there is a thin band, lighter than the D below it, immediately below the dark A border. (Its more obvious in the movie itself than in the still from the movie). Its not as light as E. It is an area that started me thinking that there might be a 6th tone, something between D and E (MS4 perhaps?) on the ship!

I agree about the bluesih hue to the forward HACs directors in the colour still. But they are clearly darker than the D/MS3 areas in various black and white photos = B5 perhaps!

[Sutho]

Is it possible the lightest colour could be white instead of 507C and 507C be one of the darker shades in B+W that we have been trying to figure out. In one of Ravens books he stated there was a pigment shortage in 1941 and some paints were unavailable such as B6 and as a result some ships mixed colours together.

The other thing that has made me wonder is are there any crew left alive and also what were their accounts of POW and its colour scheme if they were ever asked. Surely these people gave interviews.

[dick]

Is it possible the lightest colour could be white instead of 507C ....

I really dont think so. The one place that it seems to be generally accepted was white is the top of the aft funnel in the final version of the camouflage scheme. Compare that white area with the panels we have agreed are "E" in the various photos. It is perhaps most clear in the photos of her arriving at Singapore that E is not white as there are other white things to compare the tone with as well.

pow s.JPG

[Sutho]

Is it possible the lightest colour could be white instead of 507C ....

I really dont think so. The one place that it seems to be generally accepted was white is the top of the aft funnel in the final version of the camouflage scheme. Compare that white area with the panels we have agreed are "E" in the various photos. It is perhaps most clear in the photos of her arriving at Singapore that E is not white as there are other white things to compare the tone with as well.

pow s.JPG

Ok I think that label E is a continuation of 507C. There is another photo back on page two and it is quite possible that it looks lighter as it is more exposed to sunlight opposed to the upper half of the hull which is angled and would more than likely be under shadow.

[EJFoeth]

Obviously I hope to shift you from this!

I have no problems here, as I'd like to see some more blue on the ship. Plus, it would make sense if we consider the colors on top of the barrels. Still, the colour frame, the colour frame... I know we have some trouble with C if B is B5 and D is MS3, unless we declare D as MS4a and C as MS3 (explaining the greenish tint?)... The B5 in your mode blacked & whitened image does fit and the color itself appears much lighter than on the color charts.

I looked at that movie frame and there is a horizontal band near the waterline. I doubt this is a camo effect.

[Sutho]

Is it a possible combination in shades (hypothetical) that:
A=MS1
B=MS2
C=B5
D=MS3
E=507C

[Sutho]

Its still looking like a deep mystery. I have found more colourised photos on a google search and some have B6 on again. I am wondering what the opinion is about B6? Is it possible that poor quality colour film did not pick it up back in 1941.

Example here



On HMS Belfast B6 looks almost grayish/greenish in the right light, and here is the photo I found on the net. Not sure who posted it or who colourised it but here it is.



Then this one here makes the entire bridge structure look 507C unlike other photos that had it shade darker.



I am just wondering what the story of B6 is? If it is word of mouth then surely there is some reliability on it being on the ship. We know humans make mistakes, and film of that era lies about colours not to mention the use of filters in photography and shadows and ocean reflection which does make things appear different on film than it is in reality.

[EJFoeth]

The colorized image is "nice" (I really abhore those colorized images) but doesn't show the color D where we would expect it?

I do not know the source of B6 or any of the other colors. Other vessels with the 1941 disruptive camouflage, according to Raven, are HMS Renown (MS1, B5, MS3, 507C), HMS Sheffield (MS1, MS2, B5, 507C) HMS, London (MS1, B5, 507B, 507C), HMS Trinidad (MS1, 507a B5, Ms4, MS4A), HMS Indomitable (507A,B5, B6, MS4A, white). Perhaps we should take these ships into account as well and see how everything fits between them. Only one shows B6, for what it's worth.

HMS Indomitable




AH, very subtle contrast between "B6" and MS4A on the bow?

HMS Sheffield




This one is actually quite nice, showing a very dark color at the stern only. If Raven's camo sceme is correct, we have three dark tones with the lightest B5 (and 507C as the lightest overall).



HSM Queen Elizabeth, color footage. Colors do look bland and stretched in all shots...



B&W

[Sutho]

Thanks, I hope you understand how hard it is to come to grips with the information you have being wrong and I just keep being curious about where B6 came from. So HMS Queen Elizabteh in that colour slide had B6?

I know a little about photography and use some high end cameras for my travels, the one point I want to make is that even in modern photography light can cast shadows on similar colours. Example that patch at the bow below the port anchor looks lighter. I think that patch is the same 507C above but it is not unnder a shadow. The other problem with camera colours is if the camera had a filter on it to enhance contrast etc and the filter was colured, or the white balance. When taking photos indoors if you have the white balance wrong or set to auto the colours appear allot yellower than they actually are.

[EJFoeth]

So HMS Queen Elizabteh in that colour slide had B6?

Well, here we go again According to Raven & Roberts, QE had an official camouflage scheme in 1941 but no scheme is drawn (a few nice pics are included). Ensign 4 shows a stunning starboard profile (~ 1:200) if QE with the 1941 camouflage pattern showing MS1, B5, MS3 and 507C (my interpretation of those colors). Now, the Warship Perspective series do no show QE. Here, as with Dicks POW model, the B5 color is quite light but not like B6.

Perhaps the archives can be of some help: ADM 1/11171 Camouflage of capital ships: proposals. Includes 6 photographs depicting: Scale models of capital ships demonstrating effects of camouflage painting. Some more info is Here.

Naturally color can be change appearance under different lighting conditions, not the mention quality and development process of the day. So, some reservation with color interpretation is most needed.

[JCRAY]

Sutho I did my POW like yours using Raven's guide in vol 4. Then i got a copy of the leaving Singapore photo from the Australian Museum. Too late! The guide is in error, Rats back in the box! I started another one using the original guide in Ensign 1. I'm still vexed by B6???
Now I want to do QE in the first camo. scheme using the color center spread in Ensign 4.
Oh well ! muddy waters...

[EJFoeth]

Then i got a copy of the leaving Singapore photo from the Australian Museum.

Did you purchase this shot from the AWM? How is it? The preview looks a bit vague and I already have one very expensive unsharp image from the AWM...

[JCRAY]

Thats it & not any larger or clearer than the sample. It was before anyone posted a copy on line. Thank you for your help in the B6 mystery. I wonder where S & S got their sample for the colorcoat paint ? I guess John or Randy will chime in if they have anything to add. Thanks to you too Dick!
Wait a minute i don't think the color is wrong but it doesn't appear to be on POW, except in a very few locations, if at all.

[EJFoeth]

The most interesting thing is, confusingly, we have no color footage of the starboard side.... who knows if B6 was applied there... Reminds me of that stupid joke

An astronomer, a physicist and a mathematician are on a train in Scotland. The astronomer looks out of the window, sees a black sheep standing in a field, and remarks, "How odd. Scottish sheep are black." "No, no, no!" says the physicist. "Only some Scottish sheep are black." The mathematician rolls his eyes at his companions' muddled thinking and says, "In Scotland, there is at least one sheep, at least one side of which appears to be black from here."

However, I indeed think B6 was not present.

Oh, I updated a previous post with a B&W image of QE to match the colored version. From this C=B5 is understandable!

[Sutho]

Looks like you got me on B6. Even converting my model photo to greyscale B6 is too close to 507C and is almost indistinguishable.

So where does that leave the consensus.

A=MS1
B=MS2 or B5
C=unknown or B5
D=MS3
E=507C

Given the light coating of some or my paints and the location it will not be too much trouble to make some changes. Changing B6 to MS3 could be tricky but changing B5 would be almost impossible.

[Sutho]

The other thing that has been on my mind about this was what if whoever took the records of what POW was painted in got the schemes mixed up by the time Raven got it. What if MS3 was muddled up with B6 when they put pen to paper. The reason I ask is this photo:



This complete stern shot shows a wrap around colour that is faint, and is definately lighter than MS3 (which we have established is the proper colour for B6 in Ravens record).

If B6 actually did exist on POW then that location would explain its possible existance on the starboard side for which no colour photos exist. It would also explain the possible B6 patches that Tamiya has placed on the port side of A and Y main turrets (a faint pattern that is definately there in some photos).

From the discussions here I am leaning towards slightly changing my model to:
A=MS1
B=B5 (from the colour photos I am leaning towards B5 for this)
C=MS3 (somehow swapped between B6 by word of mouth history)
D=B6 (a scheme that may have been almost removed instead of MS3 as Raven states)
E=507C

[JCRAY]

I agree! But i will miss the pretty blue POW.

[dick]

I suggest that this photo was the basis for the WP portside drawing and for Raven suggesting just 4 colours at that time. However all the photos taken by the aircraft on that sortie were over exposed and ill-focused and that combined with strong low sunlight has obliterated the definition the further aft you go.

Prince of Wales l 23 Oct 41 alt.jpg

MS3 is quite a light colour and in the stern wrap-around water-level photo may look even more so. There is clearly some reflected light coming up from the surface of the water. But if you look at other photos there was a very considerable contrast with the �E�/507C panel just forward of it on the port side, too great a contrast to be B6.

Prince of Wales d 10-12 Aug 1941 crop.jpg

Prince of Wales f crop.jpg

Prince of Wales g 16 Augl 1941 Hvalfjord crop.jpg

If 5 colours I�m sticking to A=MS1, B=MS2, C=B5, D=MS3 and E = 507C until some real evidence to the contrary turns up. It makes for a very purposeful looking ship. But having done a bit of a trial I am tempted to suggest that it could have been A=MS1, B=MS2, C=B5, D=MS3 E = MS4 and F = 507C (with what was old E becoming new F and the need to look very carefully at one or two old D areas to see if they are not in fact new E!

[EJFoeth]

How do you match the color footage to B5 (contrary evidence)? Still. I'd like to have some information on how colors would fade in early WWII color film. B5 does seem to match comparing contrast images of other vessels. Plus, I have to admit, without that color shot I'd may with B5 as well, slightly lighter than on the color charts perhaps.

BTW, what's the source on the image taken on the 23rd of October 1941? I do not recall seeing it earlier (I hate that ) Here the two lighter panels amidships do look lighter than D.