Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[Rick E Davis]

Mark,

Very unlikely. LAFFEY was lost in November 1942 and most Pacific destroyers were being painted/repainted into Ms 21 per directions by that date. September 1942 photos, on Navsource and NHHC websites, show her in Ms 21 at that time. The Atlantic stationed BENSON-GLEAVES destroyers were painted in Ms 22 in late 1942 through most of 1944, but few Pacific destroyers were so painted until 1945 in the post-dazzle era.

Barrett's illustrations are nice in appearance, but they have only a few basic "configurations" in their archive and simply change the hull numbers and definitely are not accurate for all ships in the class. LAFFEY didn't have two TT mounts, a canvas topped 53 mount or twin 40-mm mounts. Plus many other errors ... I'm unsure this isn't actually a GLEAVES class profile.

IF your desire is to paint a BENSON class in Ms 22, you could select one of the units assigned to the Atlantic. But, some revises may be required since each of the four Bethlehem yards did things just a little differently, plus configuration of bulwarks, addition of 20-mm guns and transition from a single quad 1.1-in mount to twin 40-mm mounts.

[Bigdaddy Mark]

Thanks. I kind of figured that with her short life she didn't see two many changes. Since my North Carolina isn't quite right, I want to make sure this build is proper. LOL.

I was thinking about doing a full hull in heavy seas, but seeing how nice the hatches are I want to have a few of them open, so I'm not sure yet. I will have to draw a few pictures.

Thanks for clearing that up. I'm still not up to speed on the WWII paint yet.

[Tracy White]

Check out http://www.shipcamouflage.com/ if you haven't already. The individual measures are described here and the database may be of some use.

[Bigdaddy Mark]

Since I screwed up my Dazzle Paint on my USS North Carolina (I didn't know there was two sides to dazzle paint I thought it was two different paint jobs) I decided to turn my USS Laffey into the USS WOODWORTH. I have looked at all the pictures I could find I can't see much of a difference. Are there any major differences I should know about before I start the build? If there are I can't tell.

Thanks

[Tracy White]

According to the Ship Camouflage database, she was in Ms 31 , pattern 6D

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/DesignShe ... DD-421.jpg

[Bigdaddy Mark]

According to the Ship Camouflage database, she was in Ms 31 , pattern 6D

http://www.shipcamouflage.com/DesignShe ... DD-421.jpg

Yes I have good pictures of her Dazzle, and am excited about painting her.

My worry is about her armament, and layout. from the pictures I have, she looks almost identical to the Laffey. I have noted the change from Y guns to racks on her port and starboard sides, and the omission of her starboard motor whale boat. from there she looks almost identical. Am I missing anything else? If not I am going to start her after I finish the NC.

[Rick E Davis]

Mark,

If you are modeling WOODWORTH as she appeared while painted in dazzle, then yes there are several changes compared to LAFFEY kit out of the box.

Both LAFFEY and WOODWORTH were completed and operated with the one quad 1.1-in mount (in the starboard tub) and one single 20-mm mount (in the portside tub), plus four 20-mm mounts. LAFFEY was lost in this configuration, WOODWORTH was upgraded in May-June 1944 to the standard two twin 40-mm mounts, seven 20-mm configuration. Compare the posted images to the ones of WOODWORTH from 1942 that I posted earlier in this thread ... somewhere.

Actually, WOODWORTH would appear much like the BUCHANAN 1945 kit other than being a BENSON instead of being a GLEAVES class unit. The elevated platform before the bridge for a 20-mm gun, the revised 20-mm tubs before the bridge (below the platform) and the bridge wing 20-mm guns are well done in the special edition 1945 BUCHANAN kit.

[mudrat00]

Gentlemen,
I'm looking to convert my Buchanan to Charles F. Hughes DD428 wth all five 5"38s mounted. My dilema is that I need a clear set of images of aft that show all the 20mm gun tub arrangements (both port and starboard) for her during the '42-'43 time frame. At present the best I can do is to go by some lo rez Hillary P. Jones DD427 images. Any assistance would be greatly
appreciated.


Stephen

http://www.stephenmudgett.com

[Rick E Davis]

Stephen,

A couple of problems and suggestions. CHARLES F HUGHES was a BENSON class unit and BUCHANAN was a GLEAVES class unit. The stacks are wrong for C. F. HUGHES and some other details. Also, I believe DML is coming out with an early BENSON class with five 5-in mounts. Even if that is wishful thinking, the LIVERMORE kit has the half-shield/canvas top 5-in mounts needed for your build, but again LIVERMORE is a GLEAVES class unit. DD 421-422 and 425-428 were BENSONS and DD 423-424 and 429-444 were GLEAVES units.

I don't have really good stern/fantail area views of C. F. HUGHES, but I have these views of her sister HILLARY P. JONES (DD-427) taken in August 1943. These two appear to have been very close and were often in in the same yard at the same time for overhauls.

[mudrat00]

Thankyou Mr Davis,
For the assist. I also posess a Laffey DD459 kit to rob the stacks from. I tried to acquire a Livermore to rob the Half shield
5 inch mounts from, but the place I get my online kits from was out of stock. I figure I can convert two 5 " guns and scratch
the canvas tops. I jut need to be sure of the location of all the gun tubs, as they do differ fom Hilary P. Jones.

It would be great if Dragon came out with an early 5 gun Benson, but you are talking to someone that has no luck at all.

Thanks for all you've done,
Stephen

http://www.stephenmudgett.com

[falcon04]

The artwork in the Dragon "Buchanan '45" kit shows the well photographed MS 21 Tokyo Bay scheme, but also a MS 22 scheme. The U.S. Navy Camouflage Database also lists MS 22 for 1945 ( but not MS 21 ).

Q?? When was the MS 22 scheme applied ? Any photos out there of Buchanan in MS 22 ?

[Rick E Davis]

The short answer is that BUCHANAN never as far as we know, was painted in Ms 22 during the war. From the photos I have and what Steve Wiper has in his book on BUCHANAN, she was in Ms 12M until about December 1942 when she was painted in Ms 21. During her refit at Mare Island, which completed in June 1944, she was painted in Ms 31/3D. In early 1945 BUCHANAN was repainted into Ms 21 again and was so painted at the surrender. There were many other repeat GLEAVES units (DD-453 and higher hull numbers ... excluding repeat BENSONS) configured pretty much as BUCHANAN was after June 1944, that were painted in Ms 22 ... most were assigned to the Atlantic Fleet.

So depending on if you wish to model your kit after BUCHANAN or some other repeat GLEAVES in Ms 22, you are limited for accuracy to Ms 31/3D or Ms 21 for BUCHANAN out-of-the-box from the BUCHANAN 1945 kit, or you will need to select and modify as needed to represent one of the other units that was painted in Ms 22.

As an aside, many of the destroyer CO's and crews who fought in the late 1942 and early 1943 period never liked the dazzle schemes and some units repainted their fresh dazzle over back to Ms 21 as so as they could. The official end to the dazzle schemes was real late in 1944 or early 1945 (I forget the exact date) ... some units waited until they had a yard period to repaint and other ships crews were instructed by the CO to repaint the ship ASAP. The official instruction was that some DesRon's were to apply Ms 21 and some Ms 22 after the end of dazzle, but this wasn't always followed.

[Cadman]

The artwork in the Dragon "Buchanan '45" kit shows the well photographed MS 21 Tokyo Bay scheme, but also a MS 22 scheme.

I will take the blame for that. There are some photos of Buchanan in 45 that look like Ms-22, and some that are definitely Ms-21. We were still unsure at the time that the kit was getting ready for release so we left the Ms-22 on the box. It wasn't until after the kit was on the market that we were able to rule out Ms-22.

[falcon04]

Thanks, Gents. MS 21 with some "subtle" chalking / weathering / drybrushing / washing looks fine. I do like some of the dazzles, but NOT the one worn by Buchanan in '44.

MS 22 for some reason is one of the most pleasing schemes ( to me ) on a DD, CA, or CL - even when painted in the '45 revised colors.

[Charles Landrum]

A superb picture from Life of a canvas topped 5 in gun mount. I found it by searching "convoy". I have provided links to the larger images.

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/647198aa9dfd82cd_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/5bbb8a6f8497e760_large
http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/ec6c199dfea4b809_large

[DrDull]

Nice pictures - another detail I had never noticed before was that the back side of the 20mm splinter shields were painted 'interior green.'

[Charles Landrum]

Actually that is zinc chromate primer. It is evident in other photos in the serious that the ship was using the transit to conduct corrosion control. Remember this was early in the war.

[Sr. Gopher]

Still, a "style" that could be deadly.

[Rick E Davis]

Charles,

A second try (I tried posting a long write-up and it disappeared). These images were posted about two years ago, but are still wonderful. I got curious as to the identity of the "Mystery Destroyer" that I went on a quest. I found an answer and worked up a draft article for Warship International, but the user fees that Getty-LIFE wanted to charge were way too much. Here is a shorted version of the article.

A series of images taken by the noted photographer, Dmitri Kessel, while he was onboard an unidentified destroyer as part of an Atlantic convoy heading for North Africa, that were posted on the Google-LIFE collection caught my eye and curiosity. The photos are not identified as to when they were taken or as to the mission/convoy involved. I really was curious about the GLEAVES class destroyer that most if not all of the photos had been taken from. This destroyer had an unusual configuration that I had not come across before at NARA or elsewhere. The ship had been modified for twin 40-mm mounts and Mk 51 directors, but had not been installed and two single 20-mm guns were installed in the bulwark tubs intended for the twin 40-mm mounts.

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/9ac4d8e927ea849b_large



First off, I knew the destroyer was from one of the first group of GLEAVES class destroyers because of the canvas covered 53 mount and two quintuple torpedo tube mounts (see the images Charles posted). On this group of destroyers, the twin 40-mm mounts were not installed until late in 1942, many not until early 1943. Since, some of the photos in the series were taken in Casablanca harbor; they were taken after the invasion. One of the few ships that could be identified in the series of photos was the oiler USS Mattaponi (AO-41), which according to her DANFS entry said that she didn�t start convoy missions until mid-December 1942. Also, from the photos I have found at NARA in the BuShips files, the installation of the twin 40-mm mounts on GLEAVES class destroyers didn�t start until late November 1942. By deleting from my list the destroyers with two quintuple torpedo tube mounts from this early group that had either been lost or transferred to the Pacific, I had ten ships in a possible candidate list:

DD-429 Livermore
DD-430 Eberle
DD-432 Kearny
DD-437 Woolsey
DD-438 Ludlow
DD-439 Edison
DD-440 Ericsson
DD-441 Wilkes
DD-442 Nicholson
DD-443 Swanson

Another factor to consider was that the style of Mk 51 director platform seen on this mystery destroyer, an elevated platform immediately forward of the 40-mm mount, was an early style that was replaced with a different style in about April 1943. I knew that three of the above destroyers had this style of Mk 51 director platform and the twin 40-mm mounts installed by the end of December 1942. I decided that the most likely period for this convoy was early 1943.

My first effort at identifying this ship was to look at all the photos attributed to Dmitri Kessel in this series and attempt a cross reference. I found one destroyer that was identifiable; USS Wainwright (DD-419), which was a SIMS class destroyer that during the war was assigned as a DesDiv flag for BENHAM class and GLEAVES class destroyers. But, during much of the war, individual destroyers could be detached from their unit and tasked to escort with other destroyers in a convoy so it wouldn�t be unusual to see mixed ships. But, it was interesting that Wainwright had been rearmed with twin 40-mm mounts and appears to have the same style of elevated platform for the Mk 51 director.

Most of the other ships in the series were cargo ships or were too distant to identify which ship they were. I did note that there were two escort carriers without identifiable markings and they seemed to be in Royal Navy camouflage. I posted an inquiry on a ship modeling website forum with this photo and someone identified them as likely being HMS Stalker and HMS Hunter on their first cruise after they were delivered to the Royal Navy and prior to going to the UK for modification. Looking on line, I found that these two ships crossed the Atlantic as part of convoy UGF-6 departing the USA on 5 March 1943 and arriving on 16 March 1943 at Casablanca. These two ships departed Casablanca on 19 March for the UK. This narrowed down the potential dates of the photos quite a bit.

Using the month of March 1943 as the date of this convoy and the unique configuration of the mystery destroyer I was able to narrow down the possible candidate ships. In looking at the first photo above, I noticed several features to the ship that were not common on all of the ships with two quintuple torpedo tube mounts. The style of canvas cover on 53 mount was a flat-top style seen on only a few ships, the amidships 20-mm bulwark tubs have unique reinforcing ribs, and that elevated Mk 51 director platform. From the photos I had scanned of these ten candidate destroyers, I was able to eliminate all but three based on when they had the twin 40-mm mounts installed and those unique 20-mm tubs.

The remaining three destroyers were;

DD-437 Woolsey
DD-438 Ludlow
DD-442 Nicholson

There were yard photos of Nicholson taken in April 1943. The particular photo below was taken from the same location at the back of the bridge as the first photo above taken by Dmitri Kessel. From this aspect the details are almost an exact match; the 53 mount and the 20-mm bulwark tub. The elevated Mk 51 director platform has been removed and the director relocated to the new inboard position. But, this was common on other units of this group in that period. The other two ships couldn�t be eliminated due to a lack of photographic evidence. So on to textual records.



On my next trip to NARA I looked into the War Diaries and BuShips records for most of these three ships and Wainwright. BuShips records eliminated Woolsey since her twin 40-mm mounts were installed at New York Navy Yard during availability 14-24 February 1943. Ludlow was damaged during the North Africa invasion by an approximate 6-in size shell and was repaired in late November-December 1943. But, I couldn�t find a Departure report or any document that specifically said that twin 40-mm mounts were installed or what work was done. Nicholson had an overhaul period at New York Navy Yard 11-20 January 1943. I found no Departure Report or other documentation on the work done to her during this availability except that she still had six 20-mm guns and no 40-mm guns. So, the April 1943 yard period likely was when she had the twin 40-mm mounts installed.

Wainwright records indicate that she received her twin 40-mm mounts in early December 1942. But, the War Diaries indicate that Wainwright and her DesDiv mates were assigned to escort convoy UGS-6 not UGF-6.

The War Diaries for Nicholson were enlightening to the whole story and provide the likely answer. Nicholson as part of DesRon 13 was assigned to convoy UGF-6 that departed 6 March 1943. Her War Diary does indicate that Mattaponi was part of UGF-6 as well. As convoy UGF-6 approached North Africa, the convoy split with Mattaponi and Brooklyn splitting off to meet another convoy ... UGS-6. Nicholson and DesRon 13 continued with the rest of the convoy to Casablanca arriving on 16 March. On 18 March Nicholson and Bristol (DD-453) were dispatched to meet convoy UGS-6 as reinforcements. Convoy UGS-6 was repeatedly attacked by U-Boats as they crossed the Atlantic and had lost four ships. On 19 March, Nicholson came alongside Wainwright for instructions. Nicholson and Bristol continued with UGS-6 to Casablanca arriving on 21 March. DesRon 13 remained at Casablanca until 25 March when they departed with the westbound convoy CTF-64 which included Mattaponi. Nicholson went into New York Navy Yard as soon as she returned on 5 April.

I can�t be sure with absolute certainty, but I believe that the mystery destroyer is Nicholson. Ludlow is a possibility, but unlikely. An April 1943 photo of Ludlow has some of the features of the mystery destroyer and was part of convoy UGF-6 and in DesRon 13, but I found no connection to UGS-6 and Wainwright except in Casablanca harbor. At any rate these photos were taken during March 1943.

[Sr. Gopher]

I hope you don't mind me goofing off, but I have a question about that first picture: Is that sailor smoking near the torpedo tubes?!!?!?!??!?!

But seriously, where does everyone find these photos!!!??? I look every day for about 2 hours.