At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[Tracy White]

Hi guys... different patterns at different times. "left" side of the turrets for a while (so port side forward, starboard side aft), except for turret #3. Not sure when this was changed; I'll look on the high-res copy of the photo of Arizona I submitted to Navsource to see if I can make out anything on Turret #4.

[thoward]

What is the present thought of our experts regarding whether or not the Arizona's wood decks were stained or painted her lower hull color (5S, 5D, or something else) at the time of the attack? Roy Bean's work on the Japanese aerial photograph taken during the torpedo attack by the Kates and prior to the high level bombing seems to show her decks were a similar shade to those of the Nevada moored behind her. Post attack photos of the Nevada's foredeck seem to confirm the decks were stained or painted.

[Robin]

Just another pic of the model at the museum showing the color it is painted.

[Tracy White]

With regards to the props and prop shaft, which I mentioned a few pages back, here's a photo of Oklahoma's shaft and prop. Compare the shape of the props and how the shaft is shaped as it exits the hull... Trumpeter catered to the RC guys with this one.

[Tracy White]

I've been working on sending Navsource a bunch of photos for a big Pearl Harbor update (hopefully on December 7th, but no guarantees) thus have done nothing on Arizona, but I did come across this shot today that I thought would further aid those who want to accurize the Trumpeter props, struts, and hull interface. This shows better than the Oklahoma the interface between the hull and the shafts. Note the fairing shape. Note the prop shape as well (note that the inboard props appear a bit flatter at the tip, but that the outboards have the same teardrop shape).

The prop photo I mentioned previously in the Stillwell book is on page 108.

[VilleH64]

Hi all Wizards Of Az,

This is my first post here, nice to be a part of discussion.

It shows clearly, the stern of the hull is not correct, especially below waterline. I have no original hull plans, but according to photos, I have made these conclusions:

At waterline level, the side of the stern should be quite straight, at least not curved inside as in the model. This affects little also the upper part of hull.

This mistake continues downwards, to the keel level. I would say, there is some 5-8 mm or maybe more, missing in the shape at the worst spot, so not a small discrepancy.

Stern end corner is too round, it should be sharper.

V-struts are little misaligned, but this is not anymore a big issue...Propshaft leadouts can be made easily using styrene tube, fe. 3,2 mm wich has typically some 2 mm inside diameter, as axles. Some more workout and filling is necessery, of course.

Everybody can see the wrong shape of prop blades, but it is not hard to fix. Couple of strokes
with good file should be enought?.

Comparing the upper hull, the underwater part is really disappoining...I also would really prefer plating details in hull. This is not hard to do, but ship (plating)plans are needed for it to make it right.

Br, Ville H

[dsk]

Gents,

I just discovered a color photo of the Arizona wreck dating around the 1950's. Please take a look at it and let me know what you think. Actual color? Colorized?

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/30e89697241e6a0b_large

I found it by perusing through the Life Magazine photos hosted on Google.

[Sten Ekedahl]

Gents,

I just discovered a color photo of the Arizona wreck dating around the 1950's. Please take a look at it and let me know what you think. Actual color? Colorized?

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/30e89697241e6a0b_large

I found it by perusing through the Life Magazine photos hosted on Google.

Definitely a genuine colour photo and not a colourized b/w pic. However that causes the problem since the photo as aged and all colours have "drifted" towards blue. A very common thing with colour photos from that era. Difficult to say if it is blue or grey paint...

Edit: I did a bit of tinkering in Photo-paint with the picture, and found that you have to reduce the red colour. I didn't get a perfect result, but slightly more "natural" colours. I used the sky, the flag and the green vegetation in the far right background as reference objects. The ship still remains very dark blue, but very faded dark grey often tends to turn towards blue. So, as the saying goes, still confused - but on a higher level.

[BFR4570]

This is one of the photos Mike Ashey uses in his argument for the correct color of the Arizona. Here is his article. Personally, I do not agree with him, but everyone else has to make their own decisions.

http://mikeashey.com/SHIP%20ARTICLE%20P ... HARBOR.pdf

[Tracy White]

I discussed this over on a recent FineScale thread... I'll re-iterate the points here.

Digital software can "remove" color, but this is different from how film of the time represented color in black & white. In order to even think about using black and white to judge "color" one needs to be aware of how Orthochromatic and panchromatic will change the appearance of things, and how many generations away from the original the copy being used is (each time you copy a photo the lights get lighter and the darks get darker). It is something that only an expert int he field with expensive equipment can make a determination of as to how possible it may be.

Such an expert might be able to color correct the Life photo, but then we have questions, such as, how would the paint weather and change, and do we know if parts of the wreck were ever re-painted during salvage work for any reason?

So, in my opinion, it does not adequately provide evidence; there are too many questions.

[BFR4570]

Edit: I did a bit of tinkering in Photo-paint with the picture, and found that you have to reduce the red colour. I didn't get a perfect result, but slightly more "natural" colours. I used the sky, the flag and the green vegetation in the far right background as reference objects. The ship still remains very dark blue, but very faded dark grey often tends to turn towards blue. So, as the saying goes, still confused - but on a higher level.

To possibly further confuse the issue, the formulas the Navy used for their paints were changing around this time. The original 5-D color did not have any blue in the Tint Mixture, according to the memo. However, the new Tint Mixture 5-TM had blue and black in the mixture and the darkness of the paint was determined by how much of the 5-TM was added to the Base White 5-U. I can see where the newer paints could fade more to blue as they fade. But anything painted in 5-D would just become a lighter gray over time since there was no blue in that formula. According to one of the memos, this deterioration was why the Navy changed so quickly to the Blue Schemes from the Gray Schemes because the 5-D was deteriorating very quickly. I wonder if the photographers who took the aftermath pics of the Arizona in color, took any color shots of the Oklahoma, or any of the other Battleships at Pearl (at least of the ones known to be 5-D) at that time. Maybe even from the same roll of film. That could answer some of the questions as to how much blue shift may have taken place over the years. Since all the film the photographer may have used at that time was, likely as not, from the same manufactured batch lot of film. When someone finally releases all these color photos that are supposed to be buried in the archives, then maybe we will know for sure. We can only hope, anyway.

[dsk]

Wow, here I was thinking I might have found a smoking gun, only to see you guys have already seen and discussed it before. So I take it that vintage color pics aren't to be trusted, not unless somebody finds a picture of Arizona painted in one color moored right alongside another one clearly painted in another. Fat chance that happening, though.

[Tracy White]

To further increase your furthering confusion, there were TWO versions of 5-D. One was pure 5-D (so to speak) and the other was made from the pre-war (bluish toned) #5 standard Navy Gray with a tinting paste in it. Evidence suggests the converted #5 SNG was the basis for at least the first applications of 5-D on the Pacific fleet.

[Tracy White]

unless somebody finds a picture of Arizona painted in one color moored right alongside another one clearly painted in another

That would help.....

It's the main reason I've decided to pursue the paperwork chain... too many variables with photographs and too much squabbling. There's still disagreement with the textual, but I think it's easier to come to consensus, once information is found.

[BFR4570]

Wow, here I was thinking I might have found a smoking gun, only to see you guys have already seen and discussed it before. So I take it that vintage color pics aren't to be trusted, not unless somebody finds a picture of Arizona painted in one color moored right alongside another one clearly painted in another. Fat chance that happening, though.

LOL, that's pretty much what I am hoping for. But I am not going to hold my breath waiting for it. I, personally think the pictures MAY be more trustworthy than some will admit. But I do have to admit that the other end of the spectrum is also a possibility and the pictures may be WAY off. There are some things in the pics that do look normal, or nearly so, and that is what I am basing my opinion on. Things like the sky, any flags, etc. But one poster commented that a picture he saw had Marines boarding a transport ship, and they were wearing blue uniforms. So my opinion may be all wet. Since I hate the 5-D look, I am thinking of just back dating my first 1/200 Arizona to just prior to the 5-D implementation, ala Tracy's idea. Maybe by the time I finish this one, more color shots will have been released. Right now, there is just no smoking gun sufficient to absolutely convince even an optomist like me (even though I may have sounded like I have been pretty sure, from time to time), much less the die hards who insist it must have been 5-D on Dec 7. Tracy mentioned another possibility in one of his responses to one of the color pictures, and that raises the possibility in my mind that it might be just as true as all the others. But I need to check the orders, and when they went out, to see if it really is a possibility. So I won't go into it here. If it is possible, and any new color shots show up that maybe confirm this possibility, then I think it would make a beautiful version. And I may paint my second one that way anyway. But that will probably be at least a couple years in the future. Meanwhile, they say patience is a virtue.

Tracy, I hadn't seen where the SNG had any blue tint! I had only seen the formula for the original 5-TM, and 5-BP (Black Paste) with only Lamp Black as the tinting material. Do you have anything on the formula for SNG?

[dsk]

But one poster commented that a picture he saw had Marines boarding a transport ship, and they were wearing blue uniforms.

That was me, actually. Maybe Arizona was OD green?

[Tracy White]

No, I've been focusing on 1941; the prewar gray dates back at least to 1921. You can see the blue tint in the Snyder & Short US Navy Paint Chips.

[BFR4570]

No, I've been focusing on 1941; the prewar gray dates back at least to 1921. You can see the blue tint in the Snyder & Short US Navy Paint Chips.

Cool! I GOTTA get me a set of those.

[dsk]

Some follow up...

1. I've asked that one of our local modelers who did a very convincing deck painted give a tutorial at our local ship club. If I can convince him to do so I will share with you his technique. I was extremely impressed with his work.
2. Now I would also be interested in seeing a wood deck laid in on this or any other kit delivered as a tutorial for the rest of us. Has this been done already? If so can you point me to it?
3. As for ship color. My belief being a stickler for accuracy is to go with what you know. It's well documented what color the Arizona was prior to it's final color scheme which is of such controversy. The final color question may never be determined. You know it's one of two schemes. You've heard the known evidence. So make it your own!

Back to decks for a minute. I'm really curious what a battleship deck would look like on this ship. When dry would it just be gray as most woods would looked if left out in the sun to age? Or is something applied to help maintain it's original colors? I'm no expert but most wood decks left to the sun that I've seen are gray. I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

Dave

In my travels I just found another spectacular vintage color photo, this time of USS Idaho. It shows you the color of the deck both dry and wet:

http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/a0df3993f76c1b29_large

[dsk]

Probably because she was too busy fighting to be constantly having new lipstick put on.

Seriously, I liked the "all business" look of Measure 21 on Pennsy. I just wish the Navy had had the foresight to save her after the war instead of wasting her as a guinea pig. She'd have been a huge draw as a museum ship either at Pearl Harbor or PSNS/Bremerton.