Calling all USS Hornet CV-8 fans

[KevinH]

Just received the Tamiya 1/700 kit. I am planning OBB with the WEM PE and Trump B-25's. My idea is to have HORNET at Alameda loading the B-25's (I haven't found if anyone has done this dio yet). Photos of Alameda in WW2 are kinda scarce so this is kind of an obsecure question; When the B-25's were loaded onto HORNET were they loaded at the bow then pushed back to parking? Or did the crane move down the length of the ship loading the B-25's?

[Jon C Ryckert]

If my memory serves me correctly, the Hornet used the crane just aft of the island on the flight deck to pick the planes up from the peir or dock. Could be wrong though.

[BCBilly]

If my memory serves me correctly, the Hornet used the crane just aft of the island on the flight deck to pick the planes up from the peir or dock. Could be wrong though.

Yes it did !

[Hippy Ed]

If my memory serves me correctly, the Hornet used the crane just aft of the island on the flight deck to pick the planes up from the peir or dock. Could be wrong though.

Yes it did !

Yep. I just watched "Missions that Changed the world" on the History challel last night & they had a 4 part sireies on the Doolittle Raid & it showed them loading up the B-25s from that crane. They put 3 eyebolts on the B-25s to hoist them up

[Gordon Bjorklund]

If my memory serves me correctly, in the move "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo" there is a scene of a B25 being loaded on to the Hornet by the crane which is behind the island. I think that there are b25 already on the aft of the flight deck. There is also a scene just before that where they fly over a carrier docked at a pier, but I don't know if it is the Hornet at Alameda. It's been 25 yrs since the last time I watched the movie.

I think your idea of a dio sounds great.

[Hippy Ed]

If my memory serves me correctly, in the move "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo" there is a scene of a B25 being loaded on to the Hornet by the crane which is behind the island. I think that there are b25 already on the aft of the flight deck. There is also a scene just before that where they fly over a carrier docked at a pier, but I don't know if it is the Hornet at Alameda. It's been 25 yrs since the last time I watched the movie.

I think your idea of a dio sounds great.

Your memory is just fine Gordon "30 Seconds over Tokyo" was on the other night. The one plane flew under the bridge as the co-pilot commented on the carrier with B-25s already aboard.

[Michael Vorrasi]

If my memory serves me correctly, in the move "Thirty Seconds over Tokyo" there is a scene of a B25 being loaded on to the Hornet by the crane which is behind the island. I think that there are b25 already on the aft of the flight deck. There is also a scene just before that where they fly over a carrier docked at a pier, but I don't know if it is the Hornet at Alameda. It's been 25 yrs since the last time I watched the movie.

I think your idea of a dio sounds great.

Be careful though...that scene was a movie set mock-up, not the real ship! There are many scenes in the movie that are actually good mock-ups of the island as well. You can always spot the mock-ups by lack of Measure 12 splotches. The movie did make use of some actual footage of the real ship, but much of it was done with models, and the take-off scenes were filmed indoors on a large sound stage, with a mock-up of the island behind the roaring B-25's. They used three real B-25's, indoors, engines running full throttle...seriously! The noise must have been deafening. If you look closely in the movie, you can see interspersed scenes of the real B-25B's in several take-off rolls, by absence of the belly turret, B-25B fuselage windows, and lack of a bubble type navigator's astrodome. The movie planes were early C/D models made up to look like B models, but the bubble astrodome, the later model windshield framework, and the presence of the retracted belly turret gives them away. Point of interest, Ted Lawson's co-pilot, Dean Davenport, flew the aerial B-25 scenes, including hedge-hopping, flying under the Bay Bridge, wave-skimming, and they made use of an actual oil tank fire in Southern California to film the "bombing" sequence. The real flames add a lot of realism to the scene. It was one of the best special effects movies of its day, and won an Oscar for it.

[Michael Vorrasi]

Just received the Tamiya 1/700 kit. I am planning OBB with the WEM PE and Trump B-25's. My idea is to have HORNET at Alameda loading the B-25's (I haven't found if anyone has done this dio yet). Photos of Alameda in WW2 are kinda scarce so this is kind of an obsecure question; When the B-25's were loaded onto HORNET were they loaded at the bow then pushed back to parking? Or did the crane move down the length of the ship loading the B-25's?

Kevin, I'll check when I get to my home computer. I have a slightly fuzzy actual aerial snap shot photo of the loading. Taken by one of the arriving crewmembers. I'll send you a copy when I can.

[KevinH]

Just received the Tamiya 1/700 kit. I am planning OBB with the WEM PE and Trump B-25's. My idea is to have HORNET at Alameda loading the B-25's (I haven't found if anyone has done this dio yet). Photos of Alameda in WW2 are kinda scarce so this is kind of an obsecure question; When the B-25's were loaded onto HORNET were they loaded at the bow then pushed back to parking? Or did the crane move down the length of the ship loading the B-25's?

Kevin, I'll check when I get to my home computer. I have a slightly fuzzy actual aerial snap shot photo of the loading. Taken by one of the arriving crewmembers. I'll send you a copy when I can.

That would be awesome.... My Google skills must not be very good because I have tried every combination of phrases and couldn't find any photos of the loading.

[amiers]

Has any one used the 1/350 WEM PE set? if so is the Cxam Radar to large?

[Bullet Bob]

Can anyone advise on a a good paint conversion chart? For instance, looking to see for Navy Blue 5-N what paints are out there from various manufacturers. Thanks!!!

[Timmy C]

Only one company makes an accurate and reliable match for WWII naval colours: White Ensign Models' Colorcoats line. They're enamels and can be bought from their website and some other webshops.

Close approximations under the colours' official names in acrylics can be had from Polly Scale (low availability/out of production), Lifecolor, and Badger.

A chart for converting the colours to Vallejo acrylics can be found in the last post on this thread: viewtopic.php?f=5&t=25124

[Angeliccypher]

On the color/paint topic, thank you for that conversion chart to Vallejo Timmy!

I seem to remember a discussion about what colors where were on CV-8 but can not find it again. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

[Michael Vorrasi]

On the color/paint topic, thank you for that conversion chart to Vallejo Timmy!

I seem to remember a discussion about what colors where were on CV-8 but can not find it again. Can someone point me in the right direction please?

As built, 10/41 to 1/42, Measure 12 Graded:
Sea Blue 5-S lower hull, Ocean Gray 5-O upper hull and island, Haze Gray 5-H top hamper above the height of the main funnel. Deck Blue 20-B metal decks and Norfolk Blue Flight Deck Stain 250-N, with deck markings and striping in a stain equivalent to 5-O Ocean Gray. (See little photo avatar below!) A caveat, there is a small possibility that it was 5-N from the get-go, not 5-S on the lower hull, but based on the dates we know 5-N was actually introduced, it is probable that the lower hull was darkened a bit from 5-S to 5-N when she repainted into the Measure 12 Modified scheme, post-shakedown cruise. B&W photos are hard to judge, and most of the as-built ones show a somewhat lighter tone than the 12 Mod version, which we have confirmed as 5-N in many color Kodachrome shots.

As she went to war, from 2/42 until lost: Measure 12 Modified.
Navy Blue 5-N lower hull in wave pattern (with a few small splotches on the upper hull 5-O area, study photos), Ocean Gray 5-O upper hull and base island color, Haze Gray 5-H wave pattern vertically oriented stripes on the island over the 5-O base color, metal decks were Deck Blue 20-B and the flight deck was stained Norfolk Blue Flight Deck Stain 250-N. Deck marking varied for the mission. Tokyo Raid striping is well photoed. Midway looks free of deck markings, but there might have been some very faint ones in some areas, possibly around the island, maybe for wingtip clearance reasons. Santa Cruz shots look devoid of noticeable deck markings.

[MartinJQuinn]

Fred B asked me to post these photos, which come courtesy of the family of Lt. Stephen Jurika and Bob Fish, via the Stanford University Archives.

I have a couple of those Battle of Midway photos plus a few others that might be of interest. I met with the daughter of LT Stephen Jurika and went thru all the boxes she had lying around the house. I found a couple of very nice photos of Saratoga that modelers would probably drool over. I found the Hornet BoM ones in the Stanford University archives. Jurika had donated some of his papers while he was running the NROTC unit there in the 1960�s

There is a great story that goes along with these photos. Jurika was a TBD torpedo pilot by training, before he became the Air Intel Officer on Hornet. He knew many of the guys in VT-8, most of whom came over from VT-3 when he was on Saratoga. Jurika really wanted to get into the fight at Midway so, unlike every other member of the ship�s crew who dressed in battle gear (flash shirts, helmets, etc.) he dressed in his pilot�s uniform (as you can see from the photos). In his oral history at USNI he states unequivocally that if any VT-8 pilot had an issue (illness, nerves, whatever), he planned to take their place in the attack. Hence, he is standing on the bridge closely watching each TBD being warmed up and readied for takeoff. In one photo, you can see a TBD lifting off the end of the flight deck. Of course, he would have been killed in the attack, just like they were. He was devastated at losing so many friends at once, especially for their first time in combat and in such crappy, slow aircraft.

Lt. Jurika is the man in pilot gear standing alone in the photos.

Fred also noticed this: In pictures 1 and 2, look down at the pri-fly, where you'll see a face in the window. That may be Admiral Mitscher. On a modeling note, Fred adds this:

To my knowledge they have never been published, I did not see them at Nara, and from his description of how he got them they are in private hands all though no doubt taken by a ships photographer. Proof by the way of my long held theory that there are photos of the ship floating around in private hands that should be in a public facility. That whining set aside, feel free to put these on the CASF site if you wish. On the model issue, note not only a faint dark stripe on the starboard side which I have pointed out before, present on the Doolittle raid, but it also looks like it may have been re applied on the port side after the Doolittle stripes were painted over. Best seen in the photo with the planes in it.

Thank you Fred, Bob Fish, Staford University and especially the family of Lt. Jurika.

[Dick J]

Great photos!! Thanks Martin, Bob, and Fred. (Any chance of seeing those Saratoga shots?)

[Michael Vorrasi]

Great photos!! Thanks Martin, Bob, and Fred. (Any chance of seeing those Saratoga shots?)

What Dick J said +1!

BTW, I don't think those are stripes at the bow, I think they are covered over stripes. The stain did not cover well over existing stripes and markings, so sometimes there is bleed through. I have observed this in photos of Ranger when she was testing the prototype deck blue stain. Her old yellow markings that were covered over by the blue stain did show some bleed through effect. A lot depends on lighting and the angle viewed at. They appear shinier and darker because the penetration properties of the blue stain are altered when the stripes and ID letters are encountered. Many Doolittle raid photos show what looks like dark stripes under the white temporary ones laid down for the raid, and these are probably the same ones. These follow the ocean gray stripes that were present when Hornet commissioned, and I think the same dark areas covering the old stripes are showing up in Jurika's photos. It is possible that Deck Blue 20-B paint was used over the existing stripes to get better coverage than Norfolk Blue 250-N stain when covering the lighter gray stripes up. This would also account for a darker appearance.

Point of interest concerning Lt. Jurika. He was raised in the Philippines, where his parents owned a plantation. His mother was in the Philippines when the Japanese invaded, and was taken captive and placed in a civilian internment camp. When Thirty Seconds Over Tokyo came out in 1944, his role in briefing the raiders became public. The Japanese learned that his mother was being held by them. In a bloodthirsty reprisal for his role in briefing the Doolittle raiders, they executed her.

[MartinJQuinn]

Great photos!! Thanks Martin, Bob, and Fred. (Any chance of seeing those Saratoga shots?)

Patience!

A few more photos via the same source. While not OF the Hornet, they were taken on board in May 1942.

Stanhope Ring, Hornet CAG

Mitscher photo autographed by the Admiral for Ring

[Fir Na Tine]

I've recently posted a question on the History Forum of this site asking for info on the Hornet leaving SF Bay on April 2nd, 1942. I'm doing research for a painting I'm doing of her passing under the Golden Gate Bridge. The question that I asked was if anyone could provide info as to how her task force was deployed while departing. So far I haven't received anything definitive as to what it may have been.

Since I posed that question, I now have a few more. I've noticed that in many photos the lay out of the B25s to be of different arrangement. I know how they were placed during launch operations but what I need to know is how they were placed when she departed? In some of the photos I noticed what appears to be an STB on the starboard stern and a F4F towards the starboard bow. I thought all of the Hornet's planes were below.

I'm still doing mock up sketches but will soon be starting the painting so any help in this matter will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Frank

[Michael Vorrasi]

I've recently posted a question on the History Forum of this site asking for info on the Hornet leaving SF Bay on April 2nd, 1942. I'm doing research for a painting I'm doing of her passing under the Golden Gate Bridge. The question that I asked was if anyone could provide info as to how her task force was deployed while departing. So far I haven't received anything definitive as to what it may have been.

Since I posed that question, I now have a few more. I've noticed that in many photos the lay out of the B25s to be of different arrangement. I know how they were placed during launch operations but what I need to know is how they were placed when she departed? In some of the photos I noticed what appears to be an STB on the starboard stern and a F4F towards the starboard bow. I thought all of the Hornet's planes were below.

I'm still doing mock up sketches but will soon be starting the painting so any help in this matter will be greatly appreciated.

Thanks
Frank

Frank,

The B-25's were in a staggered arrangement generally, pointed forward, beginning just aft of the forward elevator. Don't make the assumption that the planes remained in a constant deck spot. They were routinely moved around to allow access to the elevators as Hornet's own aircraft were rotated up throughout the trip for engine run-ups and armament checks. Do not assume because some of the ship's aircraft appear in one photo they were there for the trip. Not so. I've yet to find a photo of her leaving San Francisco, but I think everyone who frequents this forum would love to see it. There are shots of Hornet early on that show her deck park from a distance, plus close-ups throughout the voyage. But as for the actual deck spot as she was leaving port? Still speculative to a degree, but the first shot below is probably as close as anyone could come to it without an actual photo in hand. (And please remember, as so many artists do not, that her deck was blue! Check with us if you need guidance on the colors.)

In these two shots, compare. If you look closely, you can see that a space has been cleared to access the aft elevator in the second one.