HMS Prince of Wales

[Sutho]

I have accepted it is impossible for the old WEM tins to be correct in regards to B5 and 507B. They are two visually identical colours and it would be ludicrous to have two names for paints so identical used by the Royal Navy that it seems unrealistic to expect them to exist in that same manner.

I have applied a light coat of B15 to my model.

[mister me]

however, ARE WEM paints exactly the same color/hue/shade/etc... as those on S&S chips ?
I even once thought those chips were done using WEM paints. right ???

so in other words : are S&S chips accuracy also questionnable as WEM paints now are ?

[EJFoeth]

The WEM paints I have are an exact match for the S&S color chips. Having these color charts was a significant step up from having publications with poor color reproduction or Humbrol paint-mixing recipes, and, allowed for a much better comparison and discussion. So, from a science-point-of-view I believe that the chips have been instrumental by claiming better accuracy and inviting scrutiny.

[elcejay]

Hello all,

For PoW in disruptive pattern, I believe that the camouflage was carried over the boot topping. You can see this in previously posted photos and, in particular, the stills showing the USN sailors supplying ration boxes to the ship at Placentia.

I.e. the boot-topping paint was applied as per usual for protective purposes, then covered by the camouflage paints. To my understanding, no black line would be visible unless the paint was weathered, so you might want to paint it on and cover it with the cam scheme for weathering purposes. For a yard fresh look, no black line.

Cheers,
Lindsay

[JCRAY]

Page 5 of this section has a great shot of a freshly painted HMS Kent showing no boot topping on her.
John

[Rick E Davis]

I have no dog in this hunt about the camo of this ship, but I came across a photo of HMS PRINCE of WALES at Newfoundland on 10 August 1941 at the US National Archives in the 80-G collection that I didn't see among ones posted here (although many images are now DEAD so could have been posted earlier) and thought maybe it would be of some use/interest here. There appeared to be other photos from this occasion posted, but mostly of the portside.

The destroyer alongside HMS POW was of interest to me, HMS RIPLEY (G.79). One of the USN Flush-Deckers, she has been little modified by this date.

[JCRAY]

Great photo! Thank you for posting.
John

[EJFoeth]

I've seen the image before but not in this resolution. Thanks for posting!

[Cag]

Hi All,

Thanks for posting the image of PoW and HMS Ripley, it is interes to note that in the same lighting conditions the tonal match between the hulls of Ripley and PoW.

USS Schubrick became HMS Ripley and was refitted in Devonport from 1940 to 1941. In the image we can see her false bow sheer and thanks to Lindsay a false bow wave. But it is interesting to note that the tone of the PoW camouflage scheme we are calling B5 is darker than the hull of Ripley, and the tone of PoW we are calling MS4 matches closely that of the general tone of Ripley.

Do we know what colours Ripley was painted at this time as if it was MS4 with 507c bow wave and white false sheer we can match it to PoW, however is she was in Home Fleet Grey with 507c wave and white sheer we may have to think again about PoW?

Best wishes
Cag.

[EJFoeth]

It appears that there is a contrast demarcation similar the HMS PoW C/D to the left and above the G79, running a bit over the superstructure. Perhaps the bow wave is the same color as most of the hull? Can't really tell.

I found nothing during a quick search on HMS Ripley in Raven, Hodges, Williams.

[elcejay]

HMS Ripley, port side. False bow wave is clearer here, but may be painted over by a coat now faded (as Richard has described elsewhere, and as EJ has alerted us to here).

http://www.hmscavalier.org.uk/book1/155/

(Analysis of paint B removed by me, edit of 28 Jun 16. JCRAY's post under this is correct (thanks John). Colourcoats MS1 is a blue-grey, though MS1's replacement, G5, does appear to be a green-grey in the records. I need more information on MS paints to make a more thorough analysis. Apologies for any confusion.)

Regards,
Lindsay

[JCRAY]

The colorcoat MS 1 is a very dark blue, almost black.

[EJFoeth]

Found an from British & Commonwealth Warship Camouflage Vol 2 showing HMS Prince of Wales here. I should inspect the actual volume to give it a more proper review (can't read the text) but it appears to be making all the usual errors and then a few brand new ones too. The image implies a total change of all the colors applied between left and right page...??? Somehow buying a volume just for review purposes alone is not going to happen as I do not like what I see.

[elcejay]

Hello EJ, I bought the book and regretted it. Michael, John and others cover many of the errors throughout the book in another thread (BRITISH AND COMMONWEALTH WARSHIPS CAMOUFLAGE WW2) on this site, with responses from the author.
Cheers,
Lindsay

[EJFoeth]

"Many schemes would be difficult for the reader to have found other than with the most intensive research so that historians, collectors, modelmakers and wargamers will find this unique reference source absolutely invaluable."

I only inspected vol 1 on a modeling fair and my reaction as: that looks about wrong. Now, when a ship as prolifically photographed as HMS Prince of Wales results in so many errors, one may wonder what to do with the rest of the volume(s). Bury it in the garden, I suppose.

[elcejay]

Bury it in the garden, I suppose.

That is a more productive thought than the ones I was having, EJ.

[EJFoeth]

Incidentally, I found the author who made the camouflage pattern displayed http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/prince.html and the author admits it's a doodle only, never meant as a reference. The website does not respond to requests to take it down and replace it by a better variant by the doodle author, so that pattern is now declared nonsense.

[Sutho]

Incidentally, I found the author who made the camouflage pattern displayed http://www.forcez-survivors.org.uk/prince.html and the author admits it's a doodle only, never meant as a reference. The website does not respond to requests to take it down and replace it by a better variant by the doodle author, so that pattern is now declared nonsense.

Good work.

Any updates on camouflage research? as in colours and what they may have been.

[EJFoeth]

Not really regarding HMS Prince of Wales; and no new material surfaced. The discussions on colors in other threads may be of use.

[elcejay]

Thanks for the heads-up on the Force-Z graphic, EJ.

Sutho, work on unravelling the PoW disruptive scheme continues. Two key roadblocks remain: the shades of the paints themselves are in question; the B&W images and the colour footage can only be seen, in my opinion, as indicative.

I suspect that we will have a better understanding of the shades at some stage, but I am purposefully avoiding any repeat of my earlier endeavours to put some 'science' into comparing contrasts in the B&W images, or the colours in the colour stills/photos. It is an essay into madness for all the reasons previously explained by me and others-more-knowledgeable of the pitfalls of orthochromatic and panchromatic photography. Short of finding a contemporary record of the paints applied to PoW, I do not believe we will ever have a definitive answer. We may be able to say which paints our A to E are likely to be, and not to be, but I doubt that we will get further than a range of options.

To give just one example of the difficulties with the B&W images: B5 is approximately 14% reflectance and is a bluish paint; blues appear lighter in panchromatic film; B5 could therefore easily be mistaken for MS3 which has a 20% reflectance, but is not blue, so does not appear lighter in panchromatic images. In simple terms, these two paints of considerably different 'colour' will be very difficult, if not impossible, to tell apart in panchromatic B&W images, even were the images taken in excellent conditions and developed/reproduced perfectly.

You can see this for yourself iin the below images of HMS QE, freshly painted out of Norfolk Yard in what Raven tells us is MS2, B5, MS3 and MS4A (Warship Pespectives Camouflage Vol 3 RN p 29). Yes, in some areas the two mid-range paints (B5 and MS3) may seem readily discernible, but can anyone say in all honesty that they can name the paints for each and every panel?

https://www.history.navy.mil/our-collec ... 11679.html

http://i.imgur.com/mq2vkZB.jpg


Regards,
Lindsay