HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

[pascalemod]

This thread is like watching a (pick favourite TV show) again, and there really usually not many you wanna watch, so this is pretty special. You come back and you can wait, and dont have to binge watch, as you know how it ends (You will finish this!). But you instead take in all the details and you pace yourself. I really like visiting this thread regularly for that experience alone. The good photos you post are a great help in visualizing this. And I cannot wait (and I bet so can't you) to get to the painting phase and start really brining this to life!

[Dan K]

Very well said.

[kurusu]

Marijn please remember there will be almost no "splintering" on the outside walls of a ship of the line. The external appearance of the holes is almost "wadcutter" like. The deadly splintering was on the inside part of the ship timbers.

Tests were made remember.


https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=Z08OF57gBfU

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=yGM6AlwjGS0

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=XfsuIaTU92Y

[gms]

Kurusu: Thanks for posting your links. Very interesting. I have often read about splinter damage. I now have a finer appreciation of what that meant. The USS Lawrence reenactment was especially edifying. As an aside, I would not have the courage to stand next to the cannonade to fire the gun. Looks like the muzzle may have been reinforced, just in case.

[marijn van gils]

Many thanks for those very nice words Pavel!

Marijn please remember there will be almost no "splintering" on the outside walls of a ship of the line. The external appearance of the holes is almost "wadcutter" like. The deadly splintering was on the inside part of the ship timbers.

Tests were made remember.

Many thanks Kurusu!

I think it is very correct that there was more splintering on the inside than on the outside indeed. But in those video's, I do see some clear splintering on the outside too:






But I also think some more test should be made. These ones are clearly for popular TV only, not as true scientific experiments. While the targets are made to look like ship parts visually, structurally they more resemble garden sheds: thin planks on a hollow structure.
Especially the first video is very weak: 0,5 inch fir planks! I'm not surpised a canonball would punch cleanly through that like that video shows. The second and third video's are better, with I think about 1 inch planks, and it could be oak, but still on a hollow structure. The result shows already more splintering on the outside, and on every hit.
So, what would happen with 3 inch planks of seasoned oak (quite a brittle wood!) on 1+ ft solid oak frames, like the real 'targets'?
Not only on the outside, but also on the inside I would expect the splintering to be far worse than these video's show. Period accounts describe splinters often being much larger (1 m long!).
So I think more tests would need to be made to really know, with accurate targets. I also wonder what the damage would look like when a cannon ball did not succeed in piercing the hull?

In the meantime, for artistic modelling reasons I do need to show the battle damage a bit 'larger' anyway. Otherwise, it would be almost invisible in 1/300 scale, as the holes themselves are only 0,4 to 0,5 mm diameter...

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Hi Marijn,

In the Netherlands there are two partially completed ship reconstruction projects, 'De Zeven Provinci�n' of 1653 (Lelystad) and the 'Delft' of 1782 (in Rotterdam-Delfshaven). Both are built from solid oak timber frames and hull covering (partially), as close to the original as possible.

Neither will never be completed if it seems right now, as all the required funds have totally dried out. As both timber projects are stored in the open air and exposed to the weather, decay will be slow but certain. In five years or so these will have started to rot away on the spot.

So if either of these could be used for some of your proposed experiments with gun impacts, I believe they might be put to good scientific use, before they have vanished into oblivion!

Problem will be to get cooperation of the owners, get one or more suitable guns on the spot, and turn the location into a safe and acceptable gun range, including the permission from the required authorities. It's that last requirement that will cause the most trouble I'm afraid. I think it would be much easier within the United States then in the Netherlands!

But getting any of these hulls to the USA would also be a very complex and costly task...

So if anybody reading this gets some brilliant ideas how to get this experiment together, let he speak up!

[marijn van gils]

Haha, I think you're very right about the resistance against using those reconstructions for these purposes!

But you don't need a complete ship to do some basic but scientifically sound experiments.
For example, for studying impact traces on flint projectile points, archaeologists are nowadays not shooting arrows at actual animals, but at fresh bones stuck in a block of balistic gel and covered with a fresh hide. Much more practical!

Likewise, a reconstruction of a section of hull side would suffice, let's say a 4 x 2 m section made of solide frames and planks of the correct dimensions, in seasoned oak. This could be transported to an existing gun range.
But of course, this would only deliver data on the damage to the hull sides. A complete ship would indeed be better to study how a canon ball would bounce around its interior, and damage beams, knees, masts, decks, etc.

[marijn van gils]

One of the last hull details to add was the hammock stowage.
I started with Victory.
Of course, I wanted to use the different materials for nice contrast to the wood of the hull, and have it �nicely� damaged.

I started with the basic shapes, fashioned from plastic sheet. I fixed 0,3mm brass pins in them and drilled matching holes in the bulwarks. The hammock stowage will be painted separately from the hull (because they fool the decks, and for convenience), and pins will make them easy to position accurately afterwards. It also made the rest of construction easier.



When in place on the hull, I marked the areas where I want some bigger damage in pencil. Note that I added wooden boarding to the outside of the poop deck hammock stowage.


Next, carved away a slice of the surface where this damage is to come (left). Next, I scribed the outlines of rolled hammocks (middle), and glued PE mesh over this to mimic the netting (right):


When this was finished, I added stretched sprue at the locations of the hammock cranes:




The netting is a little over-scale, but at least it looks like netting after painting, and can still be made out as netting with the naked eye in this small scale.
This is the same stuff in a 1/700 scale diorama (very heavily enlarged!), so on Victory it will look twice as small:


Finally, all of the previous work could be covered in Magic Sculp, and creases sculpted to make it look like everything is covered in canvas.
Note that I added a strip of 0,13mm plastic sheet to the top edge (only at the inside of the hammock netting of the waist). This portrays the hand rail that was fixed to the top of hammock cranes.


Small holes were simply made with the point of a scalpel in the soft putty, at the end of each sculpting session.
After hardening, the PE netting was �damaged� as appropriate, as well as the plastic �hammocks� behind it.
And finished!












And of course the trusty match stick for good measure:



Next: the same for Redoutable�

[Guest]

Marijn,

I would think that a cannon ball makes a small hole to the outside but quite a big hole into the inside of the ship side. When the ball comes through the planking it will crush the inner surface and make the wood splinter. Wood splinter was a typical cause of wounds during battle for the crew.

Regards,

Jari

[dafi]

Love it! Especially the hammock covers

Wonderful stuff!

XXXDAn

[ModelMonkey]

Truly sublime.

One can almost feel the violence of the battle.

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

O Marijn,

Your sculpting skills make me drooling! imagine, a match stick with that amount of detail, elegantly draped canvas cloth...with shredded holes and netting underneath... aaarghh....

[dafi]

Anyway for the larger holes of the shot damage: They sometimes used a mixture between canister shot and round shot for the same discharge: First the round one to penetrate, second the canister to inflict even more damage.

XXXDAn

PS: Humans always had a good sense how to invent things to hurt each other well ...

[EJFoeth]

Very nice work on the foldeables; can already picture those painted. These expoxy putties should be on the list of basic ingredients for all modellers; it is so easy to use and so many things you can do. Best thing (probably ) I picked up from your builds

[wefalck]

We will never know, whether this battle-damage is realistic, but your rendering looks very realistic. A lot of attention to detail, particularly also to the damage to the hammocks

[MartinJQuinn]

Truly sublime.

One can almost feel the violence of the battle.

What he said. Unreal work.

[marijn van gils]

Many thanks everyone!

Anyway for the larger holes of the shot damage: They sometimes used a mixture between canister shot and round shot for the same discharge: First the round one to penetrate, second the canister to inflict even more damage.

Indeed, and as you know they also often double and even treble-shotted their guns at such close quarters. I doubt each ball would pass neatly through the same hole...


But in the end, it comes down to this (for me at least):

We will never know, whether this battle-damage is realistic, but your rendering looks very realistic.

By lack of clear evidence, I feel I better choose a realistic looking option that (most importantly for a diorama!!!) gets the story told.
So this is really what I'm aiming for indeed :

One can almost feel the violence of the battle.

[JIM BAUMANN]

Ahoi Marijn!

Most excellent recent works, a lot of work ...

all of it very fine ! and some stunning sculpting of the Hammock stowage sheeting.

I cannot add more than has already been said--
aside form the horror of splintering wood is
already permeating our of the model,.... even now in its raw state.

This is certainly likely to be a definitive world landmark model !



JIM B

[Dan K]

Astounding work, Marijn. ( I had to work hard to come up with a new (for me) adjective.)

[marijn van gils]

Many thanks Jim and Dan!

( I had to work hard to come up with a new (for me) adjective.)

I appreciate the effort Dan!