At 'Em Arizona Fans!

[dsk]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is WIP?

By the way, speaking of Pennsy has anyone given thought to converting the 1/200 Arizona kit to a Pennsylvania?

[MartinJQuinn]

Please excuse my ignorance, but what is WIP?

W - work
I - in
P- progress

[dsk]

Thanks. Unfortunately mine isn't much of a WIP yet except for the rudder and prop supports. My first actual picture of the build will probably be showing off my bruises and broken teeth after SWMBO (She Who Must Be Obeyed) finds out I brought home something even bigger than that $#&@!% 1/350 Missouri.

[dsk]

So I take it we didn't get any farther than the latest rusty recollection, that maybe Arizona was a mutt with a 5-S hull and 5-D superstructure? I tried that combination using Photoshop on a line drawing, but didn't like the looks of it for modeling's sake.

[Ville H]

Concerning the color issues in dec, 7 1941, let�s bring together, what we have until yet, and forgot what we don�t. Sorry my clumsy English�

1) We have two individual but maybe controversial color images, which both has some kind of blue color.
2) We have several eye-witnesses testimonies, about blue color is used.
3) We have one description, how the deck is painted using blue color.
4) And one, which tells, painting is not finished completely.

My conclusions:
All these points together has very strong evidence, Arizona was not (at least completely) 5D dark gray in that particular time.

Point 3) tells to me, the painting has advanced somewhere in the upper deck structures. Boat deck is wooden, and in probably not painted (soon after painting, new paint came off, and dark old pain shows)? It would be very helpful, if this person could have been told what deck he has painted.

Another image on point 1) shows, the main tripod mast was painted to the point, where lighter gray for the tops begin. Second photo (this Life-one) shows, remaining under parts of mainmast is blue.

So, decision only hull and maybe turrets painted blue, is not supported by these evidences. If we trust the point 4) and combine it with 3), it tells, some upper part of the bridge structure, and maybe funnel, was dark gray.

I hope I an not completely lost in my decisions...

By the way, here's some pictures of my build, unfortunate only in Finnish...

http://www.pienoismallit.net/keskustelu ... s-arizona/

http://www.pienoismallit.net/galleria/m ... vaihe_983/

Now i'm working on the propulsion system, I will do it with RC.

Br Ville H

[BFR4570]

You mean you have actually started it, and she STILL doesn't know about it? WOW, nice little private room you have there to work in! I'm currently working in the Living Room.... Hard to hide anything.

[BFR4570]

So I take it we didn't get any farther than the latest rusty recollection, that maybe Arizona was a mutt with a 5-S hull and 5-D superstructure? I tried that combination using Photoshop on a line drawing, but didn't like the looks of it for modeling's sake.

How about the combination of 5-D Hull, 5-L Top Masts, 5-D Superstructure and Lower Masts, and 5-S Everything Else? How would that look? I think they were talking about this combo because they were short on paint, or more probably, on the 5-TM Tinting Material, since that determined the color. So they might save the Hull for last since it would take more paint to do it. Just a guess. Plus the memo from Kimmel that Tracy mentions in a response to that post mentioned back on Page 18, says to the effect that all ships should keep enough 5-D to re-paint the hull only, and use the new paint on the upper surfaces. Am I close to what you meant Tracy? So it sounds like Kimmel wanted the hulls saved for last when they could get caught up on their paint stocks. But until someone can come up with this memo again, its all just guessing. That color photo of the Port side of the wreck showed the armor for the 5"/25's as the same color as the rear turrets, and the Main Mast looked much darker. Smoke or 5-D? The casemates were not visible due to being underwater, along with the entire hull. So we are still pretty much still where we were a month ago except we may now have a three tone color scheme above the main deck. More color pics, come out, come out, wherever you are!

[davidwaples]

So far the only evidence we have is that the Arizona was painted after receiving damage prior to the attack and a memo. There's no evidence as to what this ship was painted at the time of the attack. And having gone through this color argument on my PT-109 project, I'm confident that even if color pictures come out there will be controversy concerning color shifting of the photographs. What is needed is documented proof of what paint was used and that may not exist. The speculation is interesting and fun but until some evidence appears I suggest we all take a deep breath, pick a color based on your best hunch of what we know and enjoy your builds.

Don't be these guys....

Dave

[dsk]

It's called alternating days off.

Right now I'm working on establishing a berthing space for my Arizona. Once I have a place to put it it'll help cushion the blow when she finally finds out. She and I have talked about buying a glass hutch to display my other models, but I've been insisting on looking for one that's over 36" long inside with a large access door. She still doesn't understand why I have that sort of criteria, but being a typical woman who analyzes everything I'm sure she's starting to figure it out.

[Guest]

Hi,
No hard debating at all, only trying to find, what is possible, maybe more. My first post was maybe a misleading, so I try to clarify my muddy toughs.

I think we can agree some things:

All SeaBlue (or maybe 5-O whatever) is probably wrong, and so is completely 5D dark gray.

About where the line of these colors goes, is the thing to find. As I told before, I assume the main mast was blue, based on these two only exists color images, one still crop from video clip, in this topic side 7 and the another here: http://www.gstatic.com/hostedimg/30e89697241e6a0b_large , only stub of mainmast middle leg left.

These two pictures seems to point same direction: Main mast was blue to the lighter top. But the foremast was probably dark grey, if the upper part of bridge was not painted yet with the blue? It is hard to say anything about the color because it is so soothed.

What comes in the 5-D hull color, I cannot argue it, because we don�t have any direct evidence against or for it, only this secondary information about Kimmels orders about colors? But I think, it makes sense, anyway.

I agree, we will maybe never get any certainty concerning the colors. BUT we can make good probability approximation, eliminating impossible or unlikely options away. I think we will see a lot of very interesting different interpretations in form of models near future!!

And don�t forgot the one of the most important tool of researcher, Occams razor: �Entities are not to be multiplied beyond necessity�

Br. Ville H

[Jennings]

Br. Ville H -

With all due respect (and realizing that this argument will go on endlessly until cats and dogs love one another), I think you're making a lot of assumptions from two 70 year old color photos that have been reproduced an untold number of generations and *then* digitized and put online. Any one of those unknown number of generations away from the original could very, very easily have totally changed the character of the color you perceive on your monitor (which, btw, will be different from the color on my monitor). Within 5 seconds in Photoshop I could make either of those photos absolutely, conclusively prove that the Arizona was painted in Luftwaffe RLM 75 fighter camouflage. And it would be just as valid as stating that it was any other color. We will simply never know.

J

PS: That's why I'm doing my Arizona in pre-war Light Gray with SOC's on the catapults!

[Steve Sobieralski]

Steve, when you do your planking are you covering over the slots and holes where the various plastic pieces will go (and trimming off the tabs on those pieces accordingly), or are you cutting slots and holes in the planking so the plastic parts will fit into them. If the latter, how are you doing it?
I'd like to plank my Arizona, but I'm concerned about being able to fit the kit pieces (casements, guns, etc.) into the exact locations on the deck if I plank over the slots and holes. On the other hand, if I cut the openings into the planked deck, how to line them up through the planking, especially the slots that don't go all the way through.

I'll probably do a little bit of both-trim the tabs and cut the slots-depending on the specific location. Most of the holes go all the way through so it is easy to drill up through the bottom, to locate the hole or slot, and then drill or cut down from the top to open up the entire hole. If the hole or slot does not go all the way through to the bottom you can plank over part of it and cut the planks while you can still see enough of the opening to guide you, then plank over the rest and complete the cut. Once you get into it I think you will find that it is not a difficult process, just time consuming.

Hope this helps.

[JTninja]

Might not be the right thread, but since theres no main Pennsylvania dedicated thread, Ill ask here.

Was there a reason Pennsylvania did not recieve MS 32 during '44-early '45? I found it odd that it didnt, yet most other battleships did. I thought it'd look cool to paint, but since it never happened, im out of luck.

There are Pennsylvania questions in here, so it's probably the right place.

A pattern was drawn up for her - not sure why she never painted into it, perhaps the Kamikaze threat?

The only bit Ive been able to find was this

http://www.navsource.org/archives/01/013876.jpg

Is there a port side drawing available? Or will I have to get creative? Im thinking of doing a "what-if", like getting painted when at drydock in late '44.

[Cliffy B]

If you're interested in Penny's unused Dazzle Pattern I drew this up awhile back. Her port side pattern was never sketched but I read that it would have been similar to the port side pattern of the New Mexico-Class painted in the same Measure. That's what I used when I drew up the camo sheet. I opted not to use Dull Black and instead subbed in Navy Blue (ala BB-36) to change it up a bit. Just never liked dazzle patterns with black in them. I took some liberties with the deck pattern as well, adding in more Ocean Gray patches. I started a painting of her underway sporting the dazzle camo but haven't gotten around to finishing it yet.

The colors aren't matched to color chips and I didn't bother since this was a quick workup so I could plan how to paint the ship in the painting. I needed to know what it would look like before I started mixing actual paint. Due to its complexity I wanted to know where the dividing lines were on all surfaces since the ref photo I chose was from an angle and of the port side.

Anyway, enjoy the pattern workup.



If you go over to the Naval Historical Center's page on dazzle patterns you will see some interesting information.

http://www.ibiblio.org/hyperwar/OnlineL ... 3--bb1.htm

# Photo #: 80-G-157916
Drawing of Camouflage Measure 32, Design 3D scheme prepared for USS Pennsylvania (BB-38), showing pattern intended for the ship's port side.
The pattern seen is broadly similar to Design 3D port side schemes prepared for other ship types, but differs considerably from them in detail.

# Photo #: 80-G-157915
Drawing of Camouflage Measure 32, Design 3D scheme prepared for USS Pennsylvania (BB-38), showing the pattern intended for the ship's horizontal surfaces.

Apparently the missing port side WAS drawn up but is not in the NHC collection. Perhaps they were lost to time or are still hiding away somewhere, who knows?

Hope that helps somewhat.

-Mike

[dsk]

Ugh..... I'm glad they never used that scheme because it never appealed to me at all. Of course that wasn't what it's for anyway, but still.....

I'm starting to think the Arizona was painted in an anti-sub scheme as well.....

"Enemy ship sighted, sir. Pennsylvania-class battleship on the horizon, dark grey."

"Grey? It looks sea blue to me."

"No sir, it's grey."

"Are you sure? Maybe just the hull is blue. Or maybe it's Ocean Grey."

"No sir, it is dark grey."

"I could swear it's blue! Is this periscope fogged or something?"

"No, sir. Looks like red turret tops as well."

"Is that so? How can you possibly tell at this angle???"

"Target out of range now, sir."

[JTninja]

Thats perfect Mike, thank you! Id figure Id have to create some of the paint, since it was never applied.

Up until recently, I didnt have the starboard drawing. To get an idea, I used one of Abram Joslin's Nevada schemes and applied the dazzle scheme, and would change a bit to make it for the Penn. I dont want to post the work (since he everything and its his), but I tested all the of dazzle colors. Deffiently Pale and Ocean Grays, but cant decide between Dull Black and Navy Blue. Ill be using the Black on my Indianapolis and the Blue on my Enterprise, both which will be done before the Penn, so Ill decide the final color after those builds

[Cliffy B]

Ugh..... I'm glad they never used that scheme because it never appealed to me at all. Of course that wasn't what it's for anyway, but still.....

I'm starting to think the Arizona was painted in an anti-sub scheme as well.....

"Enemy ship sighted, sir. Pennsylvania-class battleship on the horizon, dark grey."

"Grey? It looks sea blue to me."

"No sir, it's grey."

"Are you sure? Maybe just the hull is blue. Or maybe it's Ocean Grey."

"No sir, it is dark grey."

"I could swear it's blue! Is this periscope fogged or something?"

"No, sir. Looks like red turret tops as well."

"Is that so? How can you possibly tell at this angle???"

"Target out of range now, sir."

That made my day!

[dsk]

So we are still pretty much still where we were a month ago except we may now have a three tone color scheme above the main deck. More color pics, come out, come out, wherever you are!

Well, this may not help much, but I did find this photo extremely interesting. Is that original paint I see below the porthole?



Source:

http://www.pastfoundation.org/Arizona/index.htm

[dsk]

Did the NPS ever try extracting paint samples from undamaged sections of the hull, or is this even an argument they're concerned about? That picture was apparently from the 1980s so that remaining "swatch" of color probably isn't there anymore.

[Tracy White]

It didn't become a serious question until after 2005, when we started working with Don on the model.