Dick J wrote:Your question has multiple parts, most of which have been addressed previously in this thread. However, I will try to recap.
1. The object on the top of the extended flag bridge is the rangefinder that had been located atop the pilothouse, not a director. This object has been well known for years.
2. The 8" control station had 2 parts. The main part was the upper part which contained the actual 8" director. It was actually only a bit higher than the observation part which surrounded the base of the director level. When in use, the sides of the upper level could be lowered, making it appear that the entire upper level was missing. Lex probably retained the entire forward 8" director system, but this possibility has not been explored yet. (Be careful not to confuse the actual director with the housing that surrounded it. On almost every ship, the part you see in the photos is only the housing. The actual director is mounted inside. It was possible to mount the director in the open, which we tend to interpret as "the director is missing" because we don't see what we expect to see.)
3.There were 2 styles of the MK-3 fire-control radar. We see the wider type most frequently. However, the Helena (and Lexington) received the more square type, seen here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/050/0405006.jpg The MK-3 is on the high (MK-34) director. Compare that to the MK-4 radar on the lower (MK-33) AA director. The antenna in the Lex photo matches the high MK-3 in this Helena photo.
Thanks to Steve Wiper's new book and James Noblin's photo that has been posted here, we now know exactly what was mounted on the former 8" control station.
Thank you for that.
I have seen on the plans that there is a director inside the 8" platform above the flag plot. I know that there was a hole in the back of the top of this squareish building so the personnel operating the director could see out as well as a portion of the top of this director stuck out of the hole. (The optic part) With the addition of the radar on the front of the building it is logical that the director as well as the hole is still there and the enclosed building is just one big director houseing, even though it seems the directors view might be quite limited due to the radar as well as the antiairctaft platform up above. Unless their counting on the two Mk 51's on the aa platform above and the building is just a radar room like on the forward part of the stack for the CXAM radar?
This ship besides Yorktown is my most favorite ship in history. So finding out everything I can before building the models is my goal. I want to make them as accurate as possible.
Thanks
DennisJP
Dick J wrote:Your question has multiple parts, most of which have been addressed previously in this thread. However, I will try to recap.
1. The object on the top of the extended flag bridge is the rangefinder that had been located atop the pilothouse, not a director. This object has been well known for years.
2. The 8" control station had 2 parts. The main part was the upper part which contained the actual 8" director. It was actually only a bit higher than the observation part which surrounded the base of the director level. When in use, the sides of the upper level could be lowered, making it appear that the entire upper level was missing. Lex probably retained the entire forward 8" director system, but this possibility has not been explored yet. (Be careful not to confuse the actual director with the housing that surrounded it. On almost every ship, the part you see in the photos is only the housing. The actual director is mounted inside. It was possible to mount the director in the open, which we tend to interpret as "the director is missing" because we don't see what we expect to see.)
3.There were 2 styles of the MK-3 fire-control radar. We see the wider type most frequently. However, the Helena (and Lexington) received the more square type, seen here: http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/050/0405006.jpg The MK-3 is on the high (MK-34) director. Compare that to the MK-4 radar on the lower (MK-33) AA director. The antenna in the Lex photo matches the high MK-3 in this Helena photo.
Thanks to Steve Wiper's new book and James Noblin's photo that has been posted here, we now know exactly what was mounted on the former 8" control station.
Another question is brought to mind. My info I have looked up so far on fire control radars as well as this picture you showed me of the radars the two versions of the Mk 3 where used as fire control for the main guns on Cruisers as well as Battleships (Pennsylvania for one) In the photos the shape does match what is on Lexington. The Mk 4 which later was replaced by the Mk 12 with the "orange Peel" added in 44, was used for AA fire control. My question: Can a Mk 3 (Square) be used for AA as well? It makes since that they would be thinking about AA protection at the time instead of surface defence? With the removal of the 8" guns and AA additions.
The MK-3 would not have been used directly for AA fire. However, the 8" director could have been used to aim the 5" battery in either anti-surface fire or to hit the water in front of torpedo planes in hopes that the waterspouts would either hit the planes or at least disrupt their attack. BTW, Lexington did not have any MK-51 directors. What you are seeing are the elements of the MK-19 system as first installed. The two central tubs on the foretop (slightly higher ones) were the actual directors, while the "wing" tubs were the rangefinders. The Lexington's were built with 4 complete MK-19 sets - two on the foremast and two aft of the stack. Some of the surface ships combined the rangefinders in the same housing as the directors, as seen here just above the open bridge on the SLC. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/025/0402523.jpg
Dick J wrote:The MK-3 would not have been used directly for AA fire. However, the 8" director could have been used to aim the 5" battery in either anti-surface fire or to hit the water in front of torpedo planes in hopes that the waterspouts would either hit the planes or at least disrupt their attack. BTW, Lexington did not have any MK-51 directors. What you are seeing are the elements of the MK-19 system as first installed. The two central tubs on the foretop (slightly higher ones) were the actual directors, while the "wing" tubs were the rangefinders. The Lexington's were built with 4 complete MK-19 sets - two on the foremast and two aft of the stack. Some of the surface ships combined the rangefinders in the same housing as the directors, as seen here just above the open bridge on the SLC. http://www.navsource.org/archives/04/025/0402523.jpg
Here is two images of the Alabama BB-60 from Navsource.org.
This is my understanding of what they did to Lexington's flag bridge.
Had the extended flag plot with a catwalk around the front of it and instead of having it open to the weather they enclosed it. Alabama's did not have bullet or fragmentation glass. Lexington's might have.
If you notice in the same way they built the Lexington's in the NARA Photo's is the same way they built Alabama's with the thin pieces of steel coming up to form the window frames. Just different design.
Sorry for the images being so big. My first picture post here. :)
Last edited by Timmy C on Tue Nov 29, 2011 2:07 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:[img] tags removed - they don't work for Navsource pictures unless you've seen the pic already, so the rest of us only saw the broken image logo.
Here is a web sight of the national archives that has Lexington's Coral Sea after action report, as well as other ships reports. Some from Yorktown CV-5 as well.
Hope this is a help for some one.
The main report was written on May 15th 42 and is 110 pages due to several officers writing reports and them sent in together as one report. Then there is a summary report as of June 42.
A quick question for CV2 & 3 fans. As some of you may know, the old Warship Profile series is now available free on line in pdf. if you do a quick Google. ( So are all the aircraft Profiles. I believe the copyrights expired long ago, as they went belly up in the 1970's). In any event, the Warship Profiles from 1 to 40 are there, but number 41 is nowhere to be found. This was the one on the Lexington and Saratoga, and was the final one released. (Before a flood of posts are made saying it was never published, as is the common wisdom, I can state for a fact that it did exist. I held one in my hands and flipped though it in the mid 1970's. Back then, I had to weigh the allowance funds and the kit in my hand won out over picking up the new profile. I flipped through and decided I would pick it up on the next visit to the hobby shop. Well, it was gone on the next visit, and there would never be another, as they went out of business right about that time. Hoping to find a copy or a pdf. This is the Holy Grail of Profiles. Does anybody have a copy?
Last edited by Timmy C on Sun Jul 15, 2012 1:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason:Navsource does not permit the use of [img] tags around their photo links
Another photo I found at NARA. I think I have seen this photo before, but in what book I don't remember. A really nice sharp image that can be blown-up quite nicely.
I like the bottom photo you posted. It clearly shows the second turrent mount and shows trumpeters mistake on the model in this area very clearly. There was no angle of bulkhead or deck above and shows the base deck for the 8"guns and that all the ship yard workers did in April 42 besides removing the base of the 8" gun turrent was build the shielding for the 1.1 AA.
Rick E Davis wrote:Another photo I found at NARA. I think I have seen this photo before, but in what book I don't remember. A really nice sharp image that can be blown-up quite nicely.
I tried, with no luck, to find this photo an NARA. It's one I haven't seen before and do not have it in my Lex photo file. Could you post a link to it so I can get the original?
Tracy White wrote:Ummm... he posted the 80-G number. Hit floor 5 and the finding aids should tell you exactly which box it's in. What link are you looking for?
Usually if you google the 80-g number it will bring it up but when I tried that this morning it just brought up a bunch of nonsense. What do you mean by hit floor 5?
OK, I thought you said you had tried to find the photo *AT* NARA. Floor 5 is where all of the photos are stored. Not every 80-G photo is online - actually far less than the majority. Rick's is probably the best you'd find short of going there and scanning it in really high resolution yourself. However, since he's been kind enough* to label the image, it's actually possible to go get it fairly quickly and easily.
* some people will not post 80-G numbers to make it harder for others to use the photo.
Tracy White wrote:OK, I thought you said you had tried to find the photo *AT* NARA. Floor 5 is where all of the photos are stored. Not every 80-G photo is online - actually far less than the majority. Rick's is probably the best you'd find short of going there and scanning it in really high resolution yourself. However, since he's been kind enough* to label the image, it's actually possible to go get it fairly quickly and easily.
* some people will not post 80-G numbers to make it harder for others to use the photo.
By at NARA I meant the website not the actual repository. Sorry for the confusion.
Understandable, but just so you know, NARA isn't really trying to post all of the images on their site. They will do the odd one here and there - in my experience it tends to happen more often if they have been paid to scan the image in. Most of the 80-G photos you see online these days were scanned in by other researchers.
80-G is nearly 3,000 boxes of photos; Rick has hit over 15%, maybe 20% of them in his years of hitting NARA. Each photo has to be hand-scanned one at a time; no feeders. The highest 80-G number I know if is 1067588, which means that if one person hit NARA with a scanner that could do one image per 15 seconds, it would take them 556 eight-hour days to scan them all in. Given holidays and weekends, that's over two years, albeit they might be able to shorten it down to 74 weeks (a little under a year and a half) if they worked all of the extended hours on evenings on Wednesdays!
Should get about three guys together and go scan all the photos so no more problems. I would do it by groups. Like all the photo's of Lexington CV-2 or all the photos of Iowa BB61 for example. One guy goes there at lets the other two guys know where he left off when he leaves so the next guy can resume where he left off and so on.
Maybe that would be quicker. Create a data base of the photo's. They need to be put on the computer for posterity anyway. :)
I used to live in Seattle. To bad I don't now, I would help.
