Calling all Royal Navy E-class fans

[ar]

Cannot really answer the questions properly without in-depth explanations. Needs a face to face conversation or presentation to a group of people.

[Laurence Batchelor]

May/June 2008 Naval Conference in Bristol could definately be your stage then.

Either that or a cold pub in Telford on a November weekend where the unwashed masses allow sermon's

[Graham Boak]

No rush, Laurence, Echo has been completed OOB and none other is on the slipway - yet.

[Laurence Batchelor]

Going back to a previous discussion on Electra.
I thought the consesus of opinion was that at the time of the Java sea campaign she was painted in dark hull light upperworks?

I have gone through my book shelves and found my 1959 1st Edition H/B of the following book:


Now of course this can only be seen purely as a book cover, but would Electra's Gunnery Officer Lt. Cmdr T. J. Cain RN (ret) allow
such an inacurrate painting on the cover of the book he told to A.V. Sellwood back in the 1950s?
He was still very much alive, fit and well etc.

So I raise the question was Electra ever painted in the above camouflage, which appears to be some sort of disruptive type.
Or is it purely artistic licence and to wow the general book buying public?
I've checked the dustcover and no mention is given if this is a painting in the Captain's posession or if its from the NMM gallery, which if it where would add a little more weight to it.

My 2pences worth is its hogwash and perhaps the hand of the publisher Frederick Muller Ltd, London or Sellwood himself.

In addition this book also raises questions about the timing and types of armament she got before she was sunk.
This book remember is written by her Gunnery Officer who known throughout the ship as "Guns".

Speaking initially of her June-August 1940 refit at the Ailsa Ship Yard, Troon, Scotland the book has this to say:

Electra experienced many changes in her make-up, both in the Course of her sojourn at Troon and in the weeks that followed.
FredCastle, a nimble cockney reservist who had served fourteen years with the colours was placed in charge of a new fangled Oerlikon gun; and soon, in the manner of all good sailors, he had become intensely possessive about his charge, the Oerlikon becoming "my gun". But one man's meat is another's poison, and in order to make way for our increased anti-aircraft armament, I had to lose four precious torpedo tubes and was not pleased! p48.

The author seems incorrect here it was the 3-inch HA gun in place of the aft torpedo tubes which was fitted at Troon in 1940 and not an oerlikon.

Now moving onto her June-August 1941 refit in London:

Although Electra was noisy with the hammering of rivets, the snarl of drills and the thud of dockers' boots; although the red lead dripped all over her, and the oxy acetylene lamps flared angrily through the salt and the sea-scars on her hull, we managed to keep her as our" home", a living ship, even though, at the beginning of the operation we felt rather like a dispossessed family, apologising, when entering the sitting-room, for their intrusion on the bailiffs-busy removing the carpet!..... Oh yes, they'd certainly made a difference those chaps with the stewards, the union cards, the scrapers and the brushes for beneath their ministrations the tough destroyer of yesterday had been transformed into a thing of beauty, as fresh as a debutante. The harsh wrinkles that had once spread outward around her nose and chin had disappeared, her figure had been restored to its former grace, and most spectacular transformation of all, they'd bestowed upon her a party frock; had let fall over her once-tired bones a pattern of many colours, of lovely hues of blue and green, and delicate pastel greys ...
"All part of the camouflage scheme," said Davies proudly as we came aboard. "And executed by Peter Scott, or so I've heard. Wonderful isn't it?"
But among the barnacled old salts there was considerably less enthusiasm. "Just fancy the wife having a face lift at her time of life!"
"H.M.S. Sissy," chanted a drunken matelot from the quay.
"H.M.S. Sissy. Yesh, that's the same for you!" p106 & p111

This seems to suggest therefore that the wartime photo of Electra that I posted would have both green and blue panels in the WA scheme.
There is no mention of her having oerlikons fitted at this time.
But she did have the early Type 286 radar fitted to her masthead:

New faces were evident among the ship's company and some very new non-substantive rates had been introduced. Electra had at last been issued with a rather primitive radar set and Leading Seaman Roberts and two other R.D.F. operators had been sent along to make it work. p111.

Just shortely after this London refit Electra was in action again:

It was quite a party, and Electra found herself involved in it only forty-eight hours after leaving London. Having reammunitioned at Sheerness she was ordered to the north again, attached as escort to a well-armed convoy, on passage through Bomb Alley. Then Jerry intervened, a few minutes after midnight.
Though first detected only as a gentle whisper to the east, the engine-note of his bombers. increased very rapidly in intensity. Soon they were snapping and snarling around the fringes of the flock, until, having discovered a weak point, or so they thought, they came darting to the attack.
Unseen, save very briefly, and then as grey shadows only a shade or two removed from the blackness of the night, the enemy made the most of the advantages of the darkness. From the short-range platform I picked up for the merest second or two what I thought was the vague outline of a plane, but though we blazed merrily away with Castle's Oerlikon and the point-five machine-guns we were denied a kill. Nor was Cruden, joining in with the three-inch, any more successful, so we switched our fire, joining up with the general barrage which was extremely impressive. and strangely picturesque. p113

Again note here there is the mention of 0.5" Vickers, which fits with the photo amidships, but the awkard thing is the darn mention of an oerlikon gun again!
Is he still confusing and interchanging the 3-inch in place of the aft torpedo tubes with an oerlikon?
It seems strange how he mentions both by name, suggesting they are infact different moutnings present.
Or is he infact getting mixed up with it over the passages of time?
This book would have been written in the mid to late 1950s so it was only around 10-15years after events.
Or really did Electra have an Oerlikon somewhere on the ship at this time?
I still think it unlikely it seems to early when I compare to other A to I class destroyers in home waters, although it is not impossible.

Later on Electra was stationed in and around Russia and this is a little further evidence that she was carrying her camouflage and that it was working!:

We had British visitors during our stay R.A.F. officers who had flown over the convoy as it approached the shore. They were most interested in Electra's elegant camouflage; and told us that the first two flights had returned to base with the report that only one destroyer could be seen. This had caused some alarm, and a third flight had been sent to search for us. Thanks to Peter Scott's "decor", Electra had been identified by only one aircraft out of twelve. p126.

Now moving onto her activities after this I can find no evidence of refitting in the book during Russia or when she got back to the UK.
The following was done at Greenock before she proceeded to Singapore:

Our "target" exercise never materialised: for once clear of Scapa we parted from the cruisers and set course at speed for Greenock, where everything was on top line. We came alongside the wall to find several railway waggons waiting there, and soon fuel, provisions, and cases of tropical clothing were being loaded into the ship. p146

Just for your amusement I found these events onboard Electra while escorting PoW amusing, but also it shows how she was carrying like all destroyers by this time more depth charges:

(From PoW to Electra) Escort will carry out a practice sub-calibre throw-off shoot, P.O.W. as a target at 0900 tomorrow. Electra to engage..."
The signal came from Prince of Wales, when we were clear of the main submarine zone, and approaching Freetown, Commander May (Captain)sent for me.
"Guns, see this signal ? We had better get everything on top line."
"Can't do it, Sir." ,
The black brows snapped together and two words exploded.
"Why not?"
You remember, Sir, that when we were in London there was a Fleet Order......"
"Well?"
"All sub-calibre tubes were to be returned, and ships were only to draw them on loan, when actually detailed for practice. I did tell you at the time, Sir .. ."
"But of course you did! Have you the number of the order?"
Give me five minutes, Sir ...."
Every naval officer likes to get in a dig at his superior officer and soon we were signalling happily:
"Attention is drawn Fleet Order 726"
The practice was abandoned!
later in the day May handed me another signal.
"Just laugh this off"
This time the staffies were ordering us to fire two torpedoes fitted with practice heads, but I'd already been warned, and had prepared accordingly.
"What an extraordinary coincidence, Sir! Strangely enough checking through Fleet Orders when you called, and the one in my pocket affects the matter vitally, You will remember the order, Sir, the one that instructed us to return all practice heads to a common pool, and to fill the space gained with extra depth charges."
May smiled and turned to the Yeoman, to dictate another signal. And Tingle smiled, too, as he morsed its contents.
Round two for Electra p149-150

Further to this after a visit to South Africa and while transiting the Indian Ocean the ding-dong continued:

"From Prince of Wales. Report number of depth charges carried, with number filled T.N.T., with number T.N.T. and amatol, with number filled amatol."
Once clear of Capetown the staffies (inside PoW) had got to work on us
again.
"What about it, Guns?" queried May. "T.G.M. has the list,"
I answered. "Then better ask him for it!"
Picking up the phone I asked Mash to bring the list to the bridge, and a few seconds later passed on the requested details.
Back came the anticipated triumphant signal: "Attention is called to Explosives Regulations, Chapter X, paras. etc., etc .... HAVE YOU COMPLIED?"
The Old Man looked thoughtful. "Got your copy of E.R.'s
handy?"
"No, Sir, but I can pop down to my cabin and get it."
"No need for you to bother, send the messenger instead." Davies shot me a wicked glance. "If he goes by himself, Sir, he will have cooked up an alibi by the time he gets back."
The book arrived on the bridge, and the Captain looked up the relevant passages.
"Dammit. It seems pretty definite in here. We haven't slipped up, Guns? We've left nothing undone I trust."
Behind his back, Harry was doing a pantomime throat cutting act, but I ignored my friend, and concentrated on the book. "Cover with canvas, wash down with hoses, etc., etc .... "
"Haven't done a thing about complying with this little lot"
May smiled.
'It's old stuff; Sir:' I dismissed the regulations with a shrug, been superseded by the A.D.L we got at Simonstown - there's a copy of it in the back of the book."
The Captain's gratification was intense. He had seen the letter before, but had wanted to make doubly sure of its purport.
He turned to Tingle. "Yeoman, make the following signal." His tone was silky. "Attention is called to Armament Depot Instruction 999 stroke eleven, stroke four one ..."
It was a long, long time before the Flagship sent reply, together with the humble request that we proceed alongside, to pass by line immediately a copy 'of the mysterious 999!
But we did at least receive a letter in exchange. Addressed to me, it read: "I will yet catch you with your trousers down, you villain. So good luck to you, for you will be ruddy well needing it. Your inveterate enemy, Staffie."
It was our biggest moment.p154-155

Right then the first quote which throws up the idea of a bofors gun fitted to her, is this quote whilst escorting Force Z:

"Air Raid Warning!"
The troops were naked as they went to their stations; trust the Nips to start something before they were piped to Dinner!
I went to the Bofors, to select targets for our short-range armament.
"You won't be needed" said Cruden hastening to the three-inch H/L. (probably means HA) "They won't be venturing into pop-gun range."
.....Cruden's gun went off with a crack that almost split my eardrums; the Bofors, Oerlikons, and point-five machine guns joined in the symphony as Electra opened fire.
pp170-172

There is a further brief mention on p187 when beginning to talk of the time of the Fall of Singapore of again an Oerlikon and 0.5" Vickers still present onboard ship:

For, while he'd gone ashore, the Oerlikon - his precious Oerlikon - had been placed in the care of Another....
....I hastened from my perch among the point-fives.
....My machine guns missed. So too did the three-inch. Then Fred let fly. He got that Nip in the sights of his "cannon" and unleased a wonderful pan. Every shell went home, hitting the yellow man where it hurt the mostest.p187-188

Right that is enough typing for 1 morning!
I'll nit pick what is said about Java later!

[ar]

It was my thought that the destroyers would have been painted in dark hull/light upperworks, which has turned out to be in error, at least for Electra and Express.
AS for the light AA, just put it in your gray file. You may eventually find something in the armament returns. And as I mentioned earlier she may have picked up some things at Singapore and/or somewhere else along rhe way.

[Laurence Batchelor]

I'm still under the impression she was dark hull and light upper works by 1942.
I've seen no convincing evidence to contradict that.
I think the Peter Scott design was painted out before she got out to the Far East and on-station.

I have never seen any other clear photos of Electra or Express on there travels to the Far East, only PoW & Repulse ones.
Does anyone have any or is aware of anymore?

Furthermore do you have any idea where PoW picked up her army style bofors gun on her quarterdeck?
It might be that she and Electra had this done at the same time.
and finally trust me the grey file is getting very thick!

[Dick]

Laurence,

My personal hunch is that you do in fact have a picture of HMS Electra on her way to the Far East/with Force Z/or later. It is the first picture you posted. Look at what the sailors on deck are wearing - tropical rig. According to the TROM you have posted earlier, at no time prior to October 1941 was Electra out of northern/home waters so the crew would not have had this clothing earlier. Then the excerpt from the HMS Electra book you posted above states that tropical clothing was issued at Greenock on 21st October just prior to deploying to the Far East.

A further clue may be the provenance of your photo. The same picture is in the collection of the Australian War Memorial archive. If it was taken by an Australian photographer it might suggest the picture was taken in Far Eastern waters. Do you know where your picture came from?

Dick

[Laurence Batchelor]

I do not know who was the photographer, but the photo itself it is in the IWM London archive and perhaps that is where the Australian War Museum obtained its copy.

Thank you for seeing that link Dick, that didn't occur to me whilst doing the qoutes from the book!
This means the wartime Electra photo must be from anytime after the 21st October 1941 when they received the tropical rig.
As there wearing it and one chap has no top on one assumes there in hot weather already so in reality it could be Nov1941 onwards.
Its a pit we don't know the ship she's passing a line to to narrow it down further.
It's a shame also that its not a broadside view as it does not show enough of her to quash some of the armament questions the Electra book raises

I've read the rest of the book to the end and there is no other significant mentions as to A and As upto the time of her sinking.

[Laurence Batchelor]

HMS Encounter H10

Early photo of her

In and around Portsmouth

In and around Portsmouth but at a later date.
Compare with earlier 1930s photo above.
Note funnel bands have changed
As has her bridge and many smaller details.

Encounter at Torquay on the 5th June 1938.
Note her Spanish civil war markings still in place.

Another early 1930s photo of her

HMS Encounter at anchor 1937

Another final early 1930s photo of her

Sorry I don't seem to have any wartime photos of Encounter.
TROM to follow

EDIT: ALL IMAGE LINKS DELETED

[phil reeder]

A couple of weeks ago, I suggested(on another website) that the Electra, had been equipped with a 40mm Bofors, & got my head bitten off!I`m going to stick my neck out again & say he close range armament at 1942 was the following: 1x3" HA, 1X20mm port side, 1xquad 0.5"starboard side& 1x40mm location unknown.As I hope to build a model of this grand ship, I would dearly love where(&if) that 40mm was!

[Laurence Batchelor]

I saw your post Phil, and I certainly didn't shoot you down in flames!

Tell anyone to examine PoW's quarterdeck as part of Force Z, she had a 40-mm there!
Sorting Electra trust me it isn't through want of trying!
I think Electra would still have a pair of 0.5" Vickers though at these time periods were talking.

If you were to ask me where a bofors would be ideally situated on an A to I it would be in place of the aft bank of torpedo tubes.
The masts and funnels had already been shortened to improve fire arcs for the 3-inch and the weight there is compensated for with the removal of the tubes.
But then of course thats where the 3-inch HA gun is which seems to have remained on her until she was sunk.
So thats the dilema.

The form of an army style 40mm bofors gun, it my eyes, it has those 4 long feet which extend out to improvide stability and they require a large flat surface to bolt it down to or I've seen blocks of would used to make it level.
This to me suggests it would have to be situated on a deck or a very large flat piece of superstructure. The later isn't available so thats why is has to go onto a deck or perhaps like a 3-inch mounting has some form of superstructure built up around it to take it and provide stability and shelter for her crew.

Does anyone have a good picture of an army pattern 40mm bofors as used on early RN warships in WW2?

There is also the dilema of where the Oerlikons were fitted.
The wartime photo I posted does not show anything in the bridge wings.
We have established the photo is sometime after November 1941.
However the bridge wings do look like they have been reshaped and enlarged from her 1939 appearance.
Of course the oerlikons could be near to the searchlight platform or somewhere else amidships or even on the aft superstructure.
But nothing seems to be certain.

The only think which occurs to me just now sf could Lt Cmdr. Cain (Electra's Gunenry Officer) be confusing an Oerlikon gun with the Lewis machine guns destroyers kept below decks and sometimes brought up and used them bolted to the bridge walls or part of the superstructure as added short-range defence?

[Filipe Ramires]

A couple of weeks ago, I suggested(on another website) that the Electra, had been equipped with a 40mm Bofors, & got my head bitten off!I`m going to stick my neck out again & say he close range armament at 1942 was the following: 1x3" HA, 1X20mm port side, 1xquad 0.5"starboard side& 1x40mm location unknown.As I hope to build a model of this grand ship, I would dearly love where(&if) that 40mm was!

Hmm, well...it's hard to tell without any proper evidences of which AA fit Electra was using in 1942, however, I wouldn't be keen to accept that she was carrying both 1X3'' HA and one 40mm Bofors at the same time for the simple reason that the only places you could fit them was in place of the torpedo banks on in place of any of 4.7'' main guns. I don't think they would remove both torpedo banks to keep those two different weapons...they would stick with one only I guess and keep one torpedo bank. Regarding the main turrets I don't think they would take them off for the time being to give place to a single Bofors. Another possibility for the Bofors to be instaled would be eventually the former Quad Vickers platform between the funnels but it would give the Bofors a limited arc of fire.
Just my thoughts.

Filipe

[Laurence Batchelor]

To add further to what your saying Filipe.

I didn't include what the book has to say about the Java Sea battle, but in a nutsell it mentions she sinks with A, B, X & Y turrets all firing, so one of those wasn't landed.

Of course we all know that at Java she charged through the smoke screen to close the range for a lone torpedo attack to help defend Exeter and so she could get underway again.
This of course could not have been a course of action if her forward tubes were removed, so that kills that idea.

If I were to stick my neck out, which I often do on here, I would say this.
If she did indeed have an 40-mm bofors gun (which is still to be proved) it would be in 1 of 2 places in my mind:

1) The 3-inch HA gun was landed and replaced with this better mounting
or
2) It was placed somewhere amidships either next to or in place of the Quad Vickers.
One further possability with this second suposition is has it ever been known on an A to I of the Quad Vickers ever being relocated to the bridge wings from between the funnels, thus freeing up space on the former platform amidships for a more modern mount?
To my knowledge I've never seen this course of action before and think it unlikely again.

My opinion is thus: if a bofors was ever fitted it would most likely be between the funnels and in place of what was ever there.

Finally the searchlight platform also looks too small to support a bofors, though this could be where the Oerlikons might have been positioned.
What goes against this was when the mainmast was struck in 1940 often A to I's had a small jigger mast positioned on the small searchlight platform to fly the ensign and so forth.
This would have to be removed or relocated or would limit the arcs of fire for any oerlikon which might be position on there.

As we can all see there are many issues unresolved here, and I'm surprised no one has investigated this since 1959 when the Electra book came out.
It was also released into paperback, and thus must have been fairly popular.
In no other A to I destroyer publication (book or article) that I have or have ever read has anyone scrutinised things to the level we have here.

hmm I wonder is there an Electra veterans associations.....?
She's famous enough!

[Laurence Batchelor]

I just checked the Navy News list of RN associations, and couldn't see one for Electra or any other E-class destroyer, so I've wrote to the editor to see if they have any record of one ever existing.

If that bears no fruit I'll put an advert in again and continue to dig in the archives to resolve the issues.

[phil reeder]

Many thanks Laurence.I doubt if there are any members of Electra`s company left.I can`t remember how many survivors there were from the final battle, but what with being a prisoners of the Japanese, and the ravages of time , I think few would have survived.Is it worth putting an ad in the Navy News? all the best Phil R

[Filipe Ramires]

Just took a better look on John English book "Amazon to Ivanhoe" when I was having a beer in the sun and got some ideas of AA fits in those destroyers from A-I class that could bring some light to Electra final AA fit.
- Echo had, in August 1942, two 20mm Oerlikons replacing the quad Vickers between the funnels and the 3'' HA gun in place of the second torpedo bank.
- Escapade had, in February 1945, 2 20mm Oerlikons on the bridge wings, two more replacing the Vickers and two more in the searchlight platform between the torpedo banks.

I did take a look on other classes of the A-I series and got the following:
- A class destroyers had single pom-poms on the top of the structure between the two funnels
- D class destroyers had one 3'' HA gun in the same place as the A class had the single pom-pons but centerlined, plus, they had the quad Vickers in the bridge wings.
- Fortune when serving in the Indian Ocean in March 1942 had 2 20mm Oerlikons on the bridge wings but still with the quad Vickers between the funnels and the 3'' HA gun in place of the second torpedo bank.

If the Royal Navy adopted for Electra the same policy used in the D class regarding the 3'' HA gun it would be possible to put a single Bofors gun on the same place (eventually with a larger structure) between the funnels, though, so far I haven't seen yet a single photo of one of these destroyers (A-I) having a Bofors mount aboard...perhaps Laurence can add some more information regarding this comment of mine.
Regards,

Filipe

[Laurence Batchelor]

I have yet to find a photo of a 40-mm bofors fitted to any RN destroyer at this early 1941-42 time period.
Or even a good close up of the one on PoW would be nice!

I also think like you the most likely place for it is between the funnels on a remodelled superstructure.
This idea doesn't tie in with the Electra photo we have which we've now dated is November 1941 onwards, and shows Vickers between the funnels.
Unless the Bofors was added at Colombo, in South Africa or Singapore.
The first mention in the book of its existence is with the sinking of Force Z.

This painting could be nonsence of course, but some sort of AA gun appears on where the searchlight platform ort to be below which doesn't fit with our post November 1941 which shows the searchlight platform still in place and the searchlight still there.
But then again I notice the artist has drawn a mainmast which is also just plain wrong! Also I cannot see the 3-inch gun in place of the aft tubes either.
Furthermor problem with this painting are the funnels don't appear to be cut down which were done in the 1940 refit.
So basically this painting seems a complete mis-mash and probably is entirely artistic licence.
This painting does draw ones attention to those bridge wings, they look large enough to accept some sort of small AA mounting but yet why is it nothing appears in that space on Electra by 1942?

[Laurence Batchelor]

Many thanks Laurence.I doubt if there are any members of Electra`s company left.I can`t remember how many survivors there were from the final battle, but what with being a prisoners of the Japanese, and the ravages of time , I think few would have survived.Is it worth putting an ad in the Navy News? all the best Phil R

There was about 40 who survived from a wartime crew of 170 odd.
We also might find some or their families could have survived who served 1939-1941 or even from her peacetime commissioning.

[RNfanDan]

Thank you Dan though I nearly hurled my lunch on seeing your SIG

Okay, is this better?

[Laurence Batchelor]

100%

1 more photo of HMS Express, though she might be HMCS Gatineau by this time: