Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[PeteNolan]

I'm a relative newbie here, but I've read this entire thread.

I need sections for a new model of a 1958 Gleaves-based minesweeper, ex-DD616. I have everything else due to the references on this thread. I even have sections from a purchased set of old Windjammer plans BUT--in scanning and scaling them I cut off the marks from the profile, so I have no reference as to where the sections go along the hull. And the original drawn plans have been lost in two moves since.

I may have posted (perhaps under pnolan48?) images of my scratchbuilt Benson-class a few years ago. I work in 1:160 scale, as I started modeling ships for my large N-scale model railroad. I gave that first Benson away to a neighbor who served on the Plunkett during WWII. It was lost when he died. I carved that waterline hull out of maple, so I didn't need the sections from the Windjammer plans except for eyeballing. I plan to build this one out of styrene, with a central keel, sections, and plating.

Can anyone point me to a source for the sections? I have them for a Fletcher from shipyard blueprints--the Fletcher will be a concurrent build, along with (maybe) a Gearing, all in 1:160. It's easier to cast fittings all at once.

I need perhaps 15-20 of the most relevant sections.

[billi]

I'd like to do a 1/350 USS Hobson in the Nov. 2-19 1943 time frame when she deployed with HMS Anson and others, covering passage of first return convoy of winter season from Murmansk�and distant cover for Russian Convoy JW54A to the Kola Inlet.

From looking at Navsource, I can use my 1945 Buchanan with the square O-2 level from the 1945 Benson kit.
The questions:
1. Does this kit combo sound right?
2. Any other detail issues?
3. What paint scheme should I use?
Thanks
Bill Inglee

[Daniel Chavez]

Greetings to all!

This Thread has been a great...and discouraging...read! First off, I would like to thank all of the helpful folks whose expertise, in my humble opinion, is nothing short of amazing! Rick E. Davis, how in the WORLD do you keep all this info straight? Add to that, you're an amazing source on the Fletchers, as well!

I have a few questions regarding the Gleaves/Benson/etc.

I'm looking to build the DD-433 USS Gwin during her Midway service. I noted earlier in this thread that she most likely carried 2 x 20 mm, 8 x .50 cal. MGs, and probably had a canvas covered / half-shield 5"? (I'm not sure which mount was canvas-covered. The elevated aft mount, number 3 or 4, depending on how many 5" guns she carried?) Did she carry 5 x 5" during this time, or 4 x 5"? Her Navsource desription says that, as built, she carried 4 x 5", but the early-1941 photos show 5 x 5", with mounts 3 and 4 being open. The photos of her during the Doolittle Raid are, sadly, of no help, at least to my eyes!

My question is which 1/350 kit should I start with in order to build her? The Buchanan '42 and Livermore '42 are both round-bridge Bath Iron Works ships. My initial guess is that the Livermore would be a better start due to the fact that they were built closer in sequence to each other?? The follow up question, once the kit of choice has been nailed down, is what modifications would be necessary to build USS Gwin at Midway?

I appreciate any thoughts on this and apologize if this was covered and I missed it when I read this thread.

Many thanks in advance!!

Daniel Chavez

[Rick E Davis]

Dan,

You are right that the LIVERMORE kit would be the best choice of kits to start with. Unfortunately there are not any "good" close-up photos of GWIN that I'm aware of for the Doolittle Raid period. GWIN and her DesDiv 22 sisters were armed with four 5-in guns by then and had been since the summer of 1941. Mount 53 was the open mount with a canvas covered half shield. They all originally had twelve 50-cal MG's. The 50-cal MG's were gradually replaced on the destroyers in this unit with 20-mm guns ... actual locations replaced on each ship is a guess. They carried mixed 50-cal and 20-mm batteries "I THINK" until after the Battle of Midway. Below are a couple of close-up images of a unit from DesDiv 22, sister MONSSEN, and a unit in the Atlantic WOOLSEY before any 20-mm guns were installed. Hopefully they help. You will need to modify the LIVERMORE kit for 50-cal MG's. Look at the other images of the twelve 50-cal MG's in this thread for hints as to how the six 50-cal MG's and their tubs were located. Look this information over and if you have any more questions ...ask.

MONSSEN (DD-436) on 19 May 1942 ... two 20-mm guns replaced the middle 50-cal MG's (port and starboard) on the aft deckhouse.


WOOLSEY (DD-437) on 2 February 42

[Dick J]

There is a broadside photo of Gwin taken on the Doolittle Raid which seems to indicate no 20MM, and 12 .50's at that time. (At least, no on-mount shields are showing on any of the AA MG's.) She was carrying SC air search radar, but no SG or FD.

[Daniel Chavez]

Rick,

Thank you very much for the quick response. As always, your answers are a GREAT help! I've printed out the Laffey directions to go over while I wait for the kit to arrive. They're a little fuzzy, but they'll help me familiarize myself with the model and the modifications that are awaiting me. I'll re-read the thread with .50 cal and 20mm placements in mind. Thank you.

Just a quick question regarding the Woolsey. Navsource has a photo of her (3rd down on their site) as she's approaching for refueling, probably from the same sequence that you posted (your second photo). Why was she missing 51 mount? Her DANSF History doesn't speak to this.

Thank you again for your great work and help!!

Daniel Chavez

[Rick E Davis]

Dan,

I don't know why WOOLSEY's 51 mount has been removed for sure. I have had it in the back of my mind to pull her War Diaries to see if it says what exactly happened, but haven't done it yet. My "guess" at this time is one of three most likely causes: a miss-fire in the mount (fairly common event), a collision injury, or weather damage (I found a reference in CAPPS War Diaries that a large wave hit her 51 mount and caved in the shield and required it's replacement). In any case, because of the HIGH demands for escorts in early 1942, they apparently didn't have time to repair the 51 mount or replace it during a yard period and removed it so she could return to escort duty until the next yard visit.

To echo Dick's note, EXACTLY WHEN and where the DesDiv 22 units got 20-mm guns is not known with certainity. I pulled information from the Weekly Armament Summaries to find the "2-20mm and 8-50cal MG's" number. In this case for GWIN, the 15 June 1942 issue (always a time lag in information) listed her as having no 20-mm and six 50-cal MG's. It was "corrected" in the 2 July 1942 issue to 2-20mm and 8-50cal MG's. Since six 50-cal MG's was an obvious error (MONSSEN was listed as 12-50cal MG's on 15 June and corrected to the same 2-20mm and 8-50cal number as GWIN on 2 July), that at LEAST BY the Battle of Midway, she had at least 2-20mm guns. The MONSSEN photo seems to show either four 20-mm and eight 50-cal MG's OR two 20-mm and ten 50-cal MG's?? Weekly Armament Summaries back to February didn't note any changes for these ships. I guess I need to pull the files for these four destroyers and try to answer this question. In other early BENSON-GLEAVES files I have checked, I found that they were replacing the 50-cal MG's a few at a time on most units during short three-five day yard periods. But, unfortunately even the official BuShips files may not answer the question, because if Pearl Harbor and the Ship's crew made the change and DIDN'T report it ... those files won't show it. However, I think the records would report what changes were made to these four destroyers prior to going to the Pacific, which I think were all that could have been done prior to the Doolittle Raid (unless work was done on the West Coast??).

My best advise for you is to modify the LIVERMORE kit to the twelve 50-cal MG's configuration and then use a best guess as to whether to leave all 50-cal MG's on or to replace some with 20-mm guns. I don't expect anymore than two would have been mounted by April 1942. That is why "I think" MONSSEN makes a reasonable surrogate.

[Dick J]

Checking the Woolsey photo sequence, there is a hint on the hull. Note that the rounded deck edge to starboard of mount 51's location has been caved in. That would suggest a collision of some sort, rather than simple weather damage.

[Daniel Chavez]

Dick-

Thank you for your help, also! I didn't see your response until after I had thanked Rick, so please don't think I was ignoring you or being ungrateful!

Dick J / Rick E. Davis-

I was looking at the damage to the Woolsey and wondering how a collision could have resulted in totaling the 51 mount, yet leave the hull relatively lightly damaged? It seems that there is a lot of weathering on the hull, but not really any sign of structural repairs that one might expect to see after a collision. Then again, I have a totally untrained eye for things of that nature. Might it have been, as Rick noted, a large wave striking her? We are learning more and more about the power of rogue waves and they are quite capable of doing heavy damage. I'd really be interested to find out what did this to her!

If it was a collision, did any of the ships she was serving with have an over-hang that could have caused this type of damage? Or, maybe, some type of replenishment boom? I honestly don't know, so I hope my questions don't reek of amateurism!

Thank you both, again! I'll be going over this thread with an eye towards weapons placement for Gwin. Dick, thank you also for the heads-up regarding the radar. That should be an easy fix...and one I hadn't gotten around to thinking about as of yet! When I have a few moments, I'm going to draw up a basic overhead shot of her in order to start trying to get placements as close to "correct" as possible. I'll definitely ask more questions as they arise, if you guys don't mind. I'm not a Katseas, Baumann, Smith, Bender, Van Buren, Fulgoney level builder (or anywhere near!), but I do love to learn as I go and always try to improve my skills (before they REALLY start to fade!)

Thank you!

Daniel Chavez

[el Cid]

Anybody (Rick? Russ?) got a clue as to which air search radar DD-437 would have had installed in Dec '43? Woolsey was DesRon 13 flagship at the time, if that's of any relevance.

Cheers,

Keith

[Russ2146]

http://www.uboatarchive.net/U-73WoolseyActionReport.htm

The above report puts her operating off Algeria in Dec 43 and specifically mentions the SG radar being used to locate a surfaced U-boat. The DANFS history sort of neglects to mention that after depth charging, the U-boat surfaced, was spotted by Woolsey on the SG radar and was taken under gun fire, at which time the sub crew abandoned ship and the sub sank.

SC-2?????

[Rick E Davis]

Keith,

I don't have any WOOLSEY (DD-437) photos for December 1943, but in looking at photos of her sister DesDiv 25 ships (DD-438 and DD-439) I suspect IF she still had her Air Search Radar installed, it would be an SC radar along with an SG radar. I say "if" she had one, because about one in four BENSON-GLEAVES units in the Atlantic in 1943 had the AIr Search Radar replaced by a DAR or DAQ HF-DF array for anti-submarine work. But, I have no evidence she had HF-DF installed.

WOOLSEY had a series smaller refits that added up to a major refit in December 1942, January 1943, and February 1943 (about one week at a time between convoy missions) when her twin 40-mm mounts were installed. Her next major refit, I think, was a year later 25 February to 17 March 1944. WOOLSEY operated on convoy escort missions in early 1943 cross Atlantic and along the East Coast of the USA. Then she operated in the MED between 16 June 1943 into February 1944 and likely would have needed her Air Search Radar (ASR) .

It appears that most Atlantic BENSON-GLEAVES didn't get SC-2 ASR until late in the war, as they would be refitted for Pacific duty.

[el Cid]

Thanks gents,

Russ, you found the report that originally peaked my interest in Woolsey and U73. I'm depicting both vessels during the engagement; Woolsey at GQ, surface action port, and U73 settling by the stern with crew going over the side. Was going to have the vessels mounted on the same base, but seems they were still about a thousand yards apart when U73 sank so will mount each on its own. FYI, I found another first-person account of the action online at http://www.4thbeachbattalion.com/Woolsey.htm.

Rick, as she was operating in the Med, I tend to agree that she probably kept the air search radar. And because "It appears that most Atlantic BENSON-GLEAVES didn't get SC-2 ASR until late in the war", I guess my Woolsey will be fitted with the early SC radar (although the GMM SC-2 is a more visually interesting antenna).

Cheers,

Keith

[Russ2146]

I have to wonder at the discrepancies between the after action report and Lt. Thompson's narrative. Its almost like two separate incidents.

[Rick E Davis]

This is an example of the problem with personal accounts. It depends on when and who wrote them. The Action Reports were official documents written soon after the action with inputs from survivors (mostly officers) and signed off by the CO. Personal accounts can depend on where that person was located during the action and his perspective is different because he didn't see everything that happened or things that didn't make it into the report. Plus, it depends on if he wrote down the account when it happened or 50 years later ... going on memory that starts to mix different events together. I had four uncles in WWII, two I got to talk to about their service ... one in the Army in Burma and one on a DE in the Pacific late in the war. My uncle from Burma had a unit history book published soon after the war with photos to help him remember. My uncle from the DE was a radar tech and knew nothing about the weapons or camo ... he only had a photo of his ship from when it was in the Atlantic one-two years before he set foot on her.

[falcon04]

FYI - Sprue Brothers has the DD-421 USS Benson 1940

http://store.spruebrothers.com/1350-dra ... 26750.aspx

[Gordon Bjorklund]

It appears from this cropped picture of the 1945 USS Benson DD-421 that she has doors on the rear of the pilot house similar to the ones in this picture of the Woodworth. It sure looks like it. Can this be confirmed?

USS Benson DD-421

USS Woodworth DD-460

[Rick E Davis]

Confirmed. Hard to spot on most photos unless really close or when they are open.

Common on GLEAVES class also.


BENSON (DD-421) on 10 May 1943


BENSON (DD-421) on 10 March 1945


MAYO (DD-422_ on 15 August 1944

[Gordon Bjorklund]

Rick,

Thanks for the quick response and pictures about the pilot house doors on the Benson.

[Gordon Bjorklund]

Discussion of the USS Benson DD421 and Dragon's 1945 Benson kit started on page 27 in this forum on Sept. 20, 2010. Since then a wealth of information and pictures have been posted.

I posted in my Gillespie build that the 1945 Benson could not be built OOB without some modifications. I have tried tp complie a list of things that need to done to make 1945 Benson. Here is my read on the info:

1) Anchor on port side only.
2) Anchor hole on starboard side fwd deck cover over. I used .010x.080 plastic strip and sanded it down to about .050.
3) Port holes exposed and not covered over.
4) Hoses on front of forward deck house.
5) Doors on back side of pilot house.
6) Forward 20mm tubs need to be bigger and hang out over the lower deck. The shields or bulwarks need to be cut down
about 10 to 12 scale inchers, but not all the way around. Study pictures. Vertical supports need to be added to the
bottom of the tubs.
7) Small "T" vent needs to be removed from both sides of the fwd deck house and a longer one added to the port side. I
used .030x.060 plastic sheet and sanded to fit.
The forward protrusion on the top of the pilot house needs to be removed.
9) Two Mk 51's need to be added to the top of the pilot house.
10) The forward stack trunking need to be exposed.
11) It looks like there is wood planking over the top of the exposed fwd stack trunking.
12) There is a storage box (?) structure in front of the fwd stack.
13) A walkway needs to be added over the gap above the trunking.
14) Both the port & starboard side breakwater bulwarks need to be extended (parts # A-21-A-36) back to the front of the
aft deck house.
15) A cover needs to be added over the port side midship deckhouse fwd vent just in front of the fwd w/t door.
16) Remove (fill in opening) the center w/t door from the port side midship deckhouse. (I used .040x.060 plastic strip)
17) Add ladder to just in front of the rear w/t door on the port side midship deckhouse.
18) Add lockers to the deck according to the pictures.
19) Midship 20mm tubs are staggered. Move port side tub forward. Cut down shields about 10 to 12 scale inches and add
railings to the top of the shields. See pictures again. Fill in 20mm tubs support holes in deck with .030 plastic rod.
When port side tub has been moved forward locate where the tubs supports should be located, drill new holes on port
side and drill new holes for .015 plastic rod supports.
20) There is a vent(?) in front of the rear stack.
21) There is an upright hose reel assembly under the starboard side 20mm tub.
22) The is a vent on the starboard side deck just aft of the hose reel.
23) There is a locker just aft of the vent,
24) There is stabalizing support for the rear torpedo tubes that runs down the bulhead and across the deck.
25) Main mast is a tripod unit.
26) Ventilation system on top of the aft deckhouse is more elaborate than the two pieces (Q4 & Q5 ) convey.
27) The vertical support on the aft end of the rear deck house needs to be moved from part B23 to B22 so it is off center
on the port side.
28) 20mm mounts are mk 10 tripod style.
29) Hose on the starboard side midship deck house, about in the center.
30) Ship's boat on starboard side only. Fill in port side ship's boat davit locating holes with .030 plastic rod.
31) Rafts replace ship's boat on the port side.
32) 20mm have electric (?) optic sights. (I used .015x.030 plastic cut to lenght)
33) The anti slip pads on the deck are replaced by a paintd on surface.
34) Raft on top of the forward t/t assembly.
35) Add misc. ready lockers according to pictures.

Added 10-26-2011

36) Fill in depth charge locating holes in the deck. (I used .020 and .025 plastic rod.)

Added 10-30-2011

37) Fill in vent hole on the port side amidships with .040 plasticc rod.
38) Fill in access hole on port side amidships with .080 plastic rod.

Added 11-14-2011

39) The base of the stacks part #'s L14 and l-16 (good for Gleaves Class) need to be rounded for the Benson>

There may be more changes that I have not found yet.

Please feel free to bring missing changes to my attention.

Added 12-22-2011

40) Front piping on fwd stack.
41) Ladders added on the rear of the 51,52and 54 guns

Added 1-7-2012

42) Small housing added to the back of the Mk 37
43) Small radar? added to the top of the main mast.

Adde 04-27-2012

44) Delete K1 search lights from bridge.
45) Delete platforms A23 and A24 for search lights from bridge.
46) The midships depth charge racks are mounted wrong in the illustration. The K-guns need to mounted forward of the
racks not aft of them.

A big "Thanks" goes to Rick E. Davis for all of his input into this forum on a daily basis.