Calling All IJN Kongo-Class Fans

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Gaston
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Joined: Fri May 31, 2013 1:10 pm

Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Gaston »

Atma wrote:I have asked and I got that answer, the reason the hull is warped while still in the box is cause the vendor your brought it dosent have a good storage ventilation to fight extreme changes in temperature.
Whatever ! Typical answer from a Japanese manufacture :smallsmile:

This is complete nonsense and don't buy it for a minute.

The problem is a general caving-in of the flat belly of a battleship's leaf shape hull, due to lack of plastic cooling at the de-moulding stage, and it appears to be universal to all 1/350 Fujimi kits with a flat bottom and broad hull like a battleship.

It is so universal (for Fujimi) I think it could be something fundamental about their mould's design (lack of cooling relief for these large, thick and shape-sensitive parts?), otherwise the problem would not be so consistent and would come and go over the years...

Image
Image
Image

I marginally managed to improve this by standing in socks on one foot inside the hull with my 190 lbs weight fully on the bilge keels dug into a thick carpet (they didn't deform!)...

Image

I observed the exact same thing on 3 different kits of very different box vintages: Fuso, Yamashiro, and Ise.

The problem is extremely difficult to eradicate but is easy to overlook if you are not a stickler for perfectly continuous and perfectly flat hull bottoms (and certainly not too fussy about fully erasing the center join...).

Trouble is, I am...

Image

The problem took an absolutely huge amount of effort to solve, and then only on the Ise was I really successful. I never managed a good job on the Fuso or Yamashiro, but that was in part due to the difficulties in sharpening the bow from the inside, while keeping the bow's edge perfectly vertical... Fuso and Yamashiro seemed to have blunter bows than Ise, and for that reason sharpening them made them hard to keep exactly perpendicular for some reason, since on all some slight "pinching" between powerful clamps was necessary, in addition to the sharpening within the prow's joint....

Ise took me three months to really iron out, in part due to my use of lacquers spray cans, which made the (large) amounts of putty re-appear through their aggressive action on this underlying putty. I really like laquer toughness for hulls, but won't go through that again... Hasegawa's Nagato in 1/350 does not have that problem, and its wrong panel lines were a small easy issue compared to the Fujimi kits warpage... Fujimi kits with a round bottom, such as the carriers, are not a problem either.

Gaston

[EDIT]: Slight dimples, and the hull's central joint in some places to a lesser extent, reappeared on the Ise's bottom after a few weeks: This is truly unsolvable and I will just build it as is, trying to find a stand that will hide the problem... So far I have found no way of getting a smooth bottom on all 3 Fujimi Battleship kits I have assembled... I did get the Fujimi Kongo because it was really cheap, and will comment on correcting the casemates and the hull join later, since it is more appropriate to this thread. G.
Gaston
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Gaston »

Just got the Fujimi 1/350 Kongo and yet again the bottom is caved-in: I tried to assemble the hull but the joint is not level (and not "levellable" without a full heavy covering of putty: Been there once and succeded on the Ise, not going through this again thanks). This is despite applying about 190 lbs of force to level out the bare plastic as exactly as possible, and after many adjustments, from what is visible here:

Image

Image

As I said, same thing on the Fuso, Yamashiro, Ise and Kongo: It's an endemic problem to Fujimi's large flat bottomed hulls, and please note this is entirely absent from the similar Nagato by Hasegawa (or the Aoshima cruisers).

My Kongo will probably be on sale at a much reduced price: The hull is very neatly assembled (with decks) and the bottom fairly smoothed out (as far as the kit would allow, which isn't much). I will post pics on the sale post so you can make up your mind about the price I ask. I plan on boycotting ther whole Fujimi line even though this issue doesn't really affect their round bottom carriers...

The only thing that might keep me from selling is to see if the Aoshima Kongo can benefit from kit-bashing Fujimi parts... I have a feeling the Aoshima hull is probably straight...

Gaston

P.S. Please note all these hulls were from vastly disparate sources and vintages...

[Edit] I've succeeded in elliminating the hull joint on the Kongo, mainly with several coats of primer and "only" about 5-6 hours of sanding/priming, much to my surprise: The reason is -likely- as follows: The narrower hull was easier to bend back as one sound and straight surface, unlike the noticeably broader Ise/Fuso classes, which present a much, much wider flat surface on the bottom (in Kongo's case the torpedo bulges are "separated" by a "compound bulge", which narrows the center flat area even further on the already much narrower hull: Near to half the width vs Fuso/Ise!...): This in turn led to the flats being easier to bend back beyond the level point (to a slight "peaky" bottom) without the plastic "curving" unevenly from the strain, leaving a "straighter" surface of excess plastic to sand back to level, and thus a "harder" and "sounder" surface than would be the case with the use of putty required by complex uneven surfaces (especially vs Tamiya spraycan primer solvents)... Also helping was that the shaving down was initially done with very coarse grits I usually hardly associate with modelling(!): 150-220(!). I simply had the luck to have those around at the right time...

Basically, if you bend the hull out, you should bend it outward slightly beyond level so that it has a slight "peak" at the center, which can then be more easily taken down to flat, vs an uneven surface that needs porous "solvent-collapsing" filled-in areas...

Lesson learned, but too late for my Fuso class...

Special problem to note when glueing these "bent/unwarped" hulls: The extra strain of bending seems to force the builder into a "pinching" setting action (with tape) on the bottom join when glueing, this to make sure to avoid gaps, and this leads, unwittingly, to the top edges being in turn forced apart by the numerous internal bulkheads: It is very insidious, and this regularly results in the top edges of the hull being permanently too wide by 2 mm for the deck pieces, the "set" being made permanent by the glue in the numerous bulkhead upper joint pegs: Utter disaster...: This was solved by cutting off, with saw, all the upper bulkhead joint pegs, then shaving some bulkhead plastic, which then gave the upper hull the freedom to "pinch" back to the deck: Glueing the deck in place with cyano (by forcing both upper hull edges inward with tape) forced the upper hull edges to match the decks, which decks then "hold" the upper hull in a "narrower" position: Again disaster averted... The same issue popped up on the Ise's front half, but it was much worse on the Kongo, possibly due to the differences in hull shape and the way it reacts to both bending and its bulkheads...

Note that the Kongo was not "rotationaly" warped when looking from behind (the bulkhead tops all lined up), which was indeed the case on the Ise (and to a less troublesome extent the Zuikaku as well: Flawless untwisting fairly easy on that one, due to the -size-relative- thinner plastic and sparser bulkheads): Unwarping the Ise by twisting the whole thing clockwise from the rear resulted in a slight mismatch at the rear extremity, the left side ending 0.5 mm higher than the right at the very tip of the stern: I feel this was unavoidable, and is mostly concealed by the flight deck (and a bit of shaving down)[Edit: I was dead wrong about the flight deck concealing this: It actually makes it far more visible as the deck now sits slightly askew! The flight deck's complicated joint near the rear left upper hull bulge should have been carved/shaved down to conceal the problem].

The Kongo was by far the easiest of the Fujimi battleships bottoms to fix; I don't know how much experience had to do with it: The Fuso is the toughest, being the only one I have failed, despite trying on two kits... The prow on Fujimi's Fuso class is just massively blunt, requiring astounding amounts of plastic to be removed within the center join, and this contributes greatly to the complexity of fixing all the various warpages compared to the less noticeably blunt Ise/Kongo classes...

Hasegawa's Nagato, even with grid lines to erase, is a beginner's kit, hull-wise, in comparison to all those... I believe the hollows at the prow are nearly true right from the box...

G.
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JohnMGD
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Location: Echt, Netherlands

Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by JohnMGD »

Hi Guys (and girls);

I have put this question already on several fora, so why not here !
I have a very bold question ! There are some beautiful Builders models in the Dock Museum in Barrow-in-Furness, UK.
My question is, I am extremely interested in the Builders model of the Japanese battleship KONGO, and would like to have some Hi-Res pictures of the model. I am planning to build a scale 1:200 model of KONGO in this configuration. Taking pictures would be difficult because of the glass case around the ship, but there are ways to get around this, for instance taking pictures with the help of a circular polarisation filter or if not using a filter taking pictures at a angle to the glass, so that you have as less as reflection as possible, in this way using a flash is also possible. I would like to take the pictures myself, but for some reason it is impossible for me to do !! :( I looked already at the Youtube video about the ship model and extracted 26 screenshots from this video, although not the sharpest pictures they are still useable to me !
So I am calling my British friends, hope some of you are able to go to the museum and take some pictures from around the ship for me ! Or maybe you have been there already and took pictures of HIJMS KONGO.

Regards

John Dohmen.
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JohnMGD
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by JohnMGD »

Hi guys,

Still no response on my question, some of you British dudes most have visited the Dock Museum in Barrow ?? I hope someone will come forward and can help me to the needed pictures ??

John.
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Atma
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Atma »

Gaston wrote:
Atma wrote:I have asked and I got that answer, the reason the hull is warped while still in the box is cause the vendor your brought it dosent have a good storage ventilation to fight extreme changes in temperature.
Whatever ! Typical answer from a Japanese manufacture :smallsmile:

This is complete nonsense and don't buy it for a minute.

The problem is a general caving-in of the flat belly of a battleship's leaf shape hull, due to lack of plastic cooling at the de-moulding stage, and it appears to be universal to all 1/350 Fujimi kits with a flat bottom and broad hull like a battleship.
G.
No the problem is not general in all Fujimi's kit, and no its not Fujimi's fault that your hull is distorted or damaged. Its the vendor's fault.
I have checked hundreds of 1/350 and few if any have some defects and most the defects was the boxing not the models it self.
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Atma
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Atma »

blacman wrote:

there is no such on Miyukikai site.... :thinking:

Image
The Gakken books show Shiki Type 94 searchlight controllers. Gakken books also used the original plans from the shipyards that made the updates on those battleships. Fujimi used those same plans also some data from the Yamato museum. IJN Kongo class have the most well preserved plans in Japan with rich documentation and all those show Shiki Type 94 searchlight controllers.
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JohnMGD
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by JohnMGD »

Finally, I have more pictures of the Builders model of KONGO in the Dock Museum in Barrow, thanks to David Ross, hope you enjoy them, they are spectacular !!

http://david-j-ross.smugmug.com/ModelSh ... &k=bKtDQ3X


John.
Gaston
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Gaston »

Atma wrote:
Gaston wrote:

This is complete nonsense and don't buy it for a minute.

The problem is a general caving-in of the flat belly of a battleship's leaf shape hull, due to lack of plastic cooling at the de-moulding stage, and it appears to be universal to all 1/350 Fujimi kits with a flat bottom and broad hull like a battleship.
G.
No the problem is not general in all Fujimi's kit, and no its not Fujimi's fault that your hull is distorted or damaged. Its the vendor's fault.
I have checked hundreds of 1/350 and few if any have some defects and most the defects was the boxing not the models it self.

Then prove it with a similar picture of a Fujimi battleship kit belly that is not warped like that: I have bought six kits from various sources and vintages, and they were all the same. It is universal.

To blame the vendor for this widespread varied-vintage moulding flaw (with kits of ages ranging over ten years at least) is pretty rich in my opinion. Vendors are usually not stupid enough to store kits near heat sources, and they wouldn't do it consistently...

Also, if the storage conditions were so harsh, how come they don't affect any of the Hasegawa and Aoshima kits I have had from the very same vendors? How come the cardboard boxes and posters are absolutely pristine-looking? Are you saying Hobbylink Japan, Hobby Search, plus Plamoya (my only 3 vendors), who all have high tech professional storage, have inadequate storage conditions? The only one I ever got locally was the Ise, an old beaten box, and it was over ten years old, and still warped in the exact same way as the brand-new ones..

Back it up with straight perspective bottom photos like the ones I provided of ALL the Fujimi 1/350 battleship subjects. Let a little of the inside's outer flat area show, so we can see the obvious plastic whitening in case you straightened them out... Somehow I am not holding my breath...

Still agree with you they are the best of them all, just not that they are made in the best way...

The vendor's fault. Good one. Let's see you provide convincing pictures...

Gaston
Gaston
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Where was AA added to Kongo in June 1944?

Post by Gaston »

This is what I could find so far, I think from the tabular record of movement:

30 June 1944:
Kure Naval Yard. A Type 22 surface search/gunnery control radar set and Type 13 radars are fitted on the bridge and the mainmast respectively. Seventy-six 25mm AA guns (twelve triple and forty single mounts) are installed. KONGO's secondary and AA armament are eight 6-inch/50, six dual 5-inch/40 and one hundred 25-mm AA. She embarks two Mitsubishi F1M2 "Pete" floatplanes.

I have some spare earlier floatplanes from other kits...

The main thing I guess is where the 12 triple mounts were added...

The reason I am asking is I am at the cross road of settling on Kure or Sasebo gray, and the White Ensign reference on Japanese grays says it became Kure gray at this juncture: I much prefer the darker Sasebo gray for its appearance, so I am wondering how hard would it be to backdate the Fujimi 1/350 kit a few months to earlier in 1944?

Another question is I have the Flyhawk set: Does it include the earlier pre-June radar set?

Thanks in advance for any help.

Gaston
Dan K
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Re: Where was AA added to Kongo in June 1944?

Post by Dan K »

Will try to look this up for you in the Ishibashi volume
Gaston
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Re: Where was AA added to Kongo in June 1944?

Post by Gaston »

Thank you very much David! That is a big help!

Much appreciated.

Gaston
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Channell
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Channell »

Gaston wrote:
Atma wrote:I have asked and I got that answer, the reason the hull is warped while still in the box is cause the vendor your brought it dosent have a good storage ventilation to fight extreme changes in temperature.
Whatever ! Typical answer from a Japanese manufacture :smallsmile:

This is complete nonsense and don't buy it for a minute.

The problem is a general caving-in of the flat belly of a battleship's leaf shape hull, due to lack of plastic cooling at the de-moulding stage, and it appears to be universal to all 1/350 Fujimi kits with a flat bottom and broad hull like a battleship.

It is so universal (for Fujimi) I think it could be something fundamental about their mould's design (lack of cooling relief for these large, thick and shape-sensitive parts?), otherwise the problem would not be so consistent and would come and go over the years...

Image
Image
Image

I marginally managed to improve this by standing in socks on one foot inside the hull with my 190 lbs weight fully on the bilge keels dug into a thick carpet (they didn't deform!)...

Image

I observed the exact same thing on 3 different kits of very different box vintages: Fuso, Yamashiro, and Ise.

The problem is extremely difficult to eradicate but is easy to overlook if you are not a stickler for perfectly continuous and perfectly flat hull bottoms (and certainly not too fussy about fully erasing the center join...).

Trouble is, I am...

Image

The problem took an absolutely huge amount of effort to solve, and then only on the Ise was I really successful. I never managed a good job on the Fuso or Yamashiro, but that was in part due to the difficulties in sharpening the bow from the inside, while keeping the bow's edge perfectly vertical... Fuso and Yamashiro seemed to have blunter bows than Ise, and for that reason sharpening them made them hard to keep exactly perpendicular for some reason, since on all some slight "pinching" between powerful clamps was necessary, in addition to the sharpening within the prow's joint....

Ise took me three months to really iron out, in part due to my use of lacquers spray cans, which made the (large) amounts of putty re-appear through their aggressive action on this underlying putty. I really like laquer toughness for hulls, but won't go through that again... Hasegawa's Nagato in 1/350 does not have that problem, and its wrong panel lines were a small easy issue compared to the Fujimi kits warpage... Fujimi kits with a round bottom, such as the carriers, are not a problem either.

Gaston

[EDIT]: Slight dimples, and the hull's central joint in some places to a lesser extent, reappeared on the Ise's bottom after a few weeks: This is truly unsolvable and I will just build it as is, trying to find a stand that will hide the problem... So far I have found no way of getting a smooth bottom on all 3 Fujimi Battleship kits I have assembled... I did get the Fujimi Kongo because it was really cheap, and will comment on correcting the casemates and the hull join later, since it is more appropriate to this thread. G.
Gaston, Gaston... :no_2: All these problems have been regular things resolved peacefully and enjoyably by veteran modelers for decades. Your hull looks awesome; rather than being angry you should feel a sense of accomplishment for achieving a good hull under less than ideal circumstances. As for hull dimples, several coats of squadron putty and a homemade small sanding block will work wonders.

If you don't enjoy dealing with any of this stuff, you may have picked the wrong hobby...
-Jason Channell

Current Project: 1/200 Bismarck
Dan K
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Re: Where was AA added to Kongo in June 1944?

Post by Dan K »

Hopefully, this helps with placement. Resolution is a little low to discern the triples vs. the twins.
Attachments
Kongo AA fit July 1944, Ishibashi BB vol.jpg
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peppe
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by peppe »

marked in red are double, all other triple
ciao peppe
Attachments
Kongo AA fit July 1944, Ishibashi BB vol.jpg
Dan K
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Dan K »

Thx, Peppe. :smallsmile:
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blacman
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by blacman »

Hello fellows :wave_1:
I have some concers about railings around flight deck area.
Was the railing around whole linoleum deck ?
If yes - was it folded down during reco planes operations?
Thank you
Greg
...in my shipyard...
Image
Dan K
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Dan K »

Yes, and yes.

You can see the railing stanchions bundled together and laid down at the edge of the flight deck in these photos-
Attachments
Haruna a-c deck 1937 #1.jpg
Haruna a-c deck 1937 #2.jpg
Dan K
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Dan K »

Actually, ignore the bundles. If you look at the two stanchions down on deck in the lower left hand corner (partially hidden by crew) for photo #1, you can see that each stanchion pivots to one side from its base.
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blacman
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by blacman »

thanks Dan :thumbs_up_1:

and...

Kirishima released reco plane before The Second Naval Battle of Guadalcanal (I cannot recall where I found it). I assume she went into last night fight with railings folded down ...
...in my shipyard...
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Dan K
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Re: Calling all IJN Kongo class fans

Post by Dan K »

I would think so.
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