Calling all Yamato (大和) and Musashi (武蔵) fans

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bucketfoot-al
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by bucketfoot-al »

Doug - You lucky devil. I wonder if she can figure out where the info posted on that Japanese page comes from - its been my resource for the diagram I linked. Google machine translator absolutely stinks for Japanese-English. I'd love to be able to refer to some actual research cites - though its obvious that the Japanese did a LOT of research for the 2005 anniversary of her sinking. (Page linked down towards the end). I keep expanding this post and I think I can prove to you - with reasonable certainty - that I am correct in my own interpretations of several of the disputed AA locations and single vs. triple types, so - please read on! :eyebrows:

Just took a good look at that diagram at Wiki and I must say that you are correct - the deck shields are indeed there, the only issue is whether they were mounted on metal plates as shown in the diagram or onto the wood deck itself, as the diagram I linked to - and the 2005 film - appear to show.

I give the artist kudos for removing the crane tower which we can say with 100% certainty was removed prior to Ten-ichigo, as proved by the USN close-up photos of the initial bombing runs on the ship (as seen on my web archive).

So we're just down to the number and placement of the AA batteries. The 6 up front are stretched out instead of being bunched near the superstructure - the latter location makes more sense, I am sure you would agree. The 4 single .25 cals up front are missing (that is where you see 2 triple mounts that ought to be farther back).

Finally, the 2 additional rear flight deck AAA mounts are missing. Blow up this photo to its full size, move back, squint a bit - and you will see them (actually their shadows) on this photo: http://ultimatebattleshipyamatosite.tri ... 5?i=79&s=1

Compare with the diagram I linked earlier - you can see the AAA mounts on top of turret #3, you can see the AAA mounts astride the white flight deck lines to the outside, and then, if you look towards the square structure under the guns of turret #3, you can make out shadows on both sides where the diagram I linked shows the added pair of AAA mounts to be.

Unfortunately, we don't get the same resolution on the front half of the ship - probably because of the water spray from the ear misses and the fact that this photo was taken from - what? 5 miles up? I am amazed that this closeup of a tiny section of the original photo is as clear as it is!

As far as the 4 single mounted AA machine guns up near the rear of main turret #1, the following photo clearly shows the sandbagging around them, and - if you look at the starboard side location I SWEAR that you can SEE the two individual AA single mounts. But it took my obtaining a pretty large resolution of that photo for that detail to suddenly leap out at me: http://ultimatebattleshipyamatosite.tri ... _Tengo.JPG

As far as that famous photo goes, the part of the deck nearest the superstructure is unfortunately covered with haze from the machine guns firing plus the smoke from the bombs (one of which has just impacted the lower port side of the superstructure front and taken out the AA mounts there).

Here is the page I would love for your wife to look at and see what research is cited for the changing diagrams of Musashi and Yamato:

http://homepage1.nifty.com/watakan/yama ... to_aa.html
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Seabee Mike
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Seabee Mike »

"Here is the page I would love for your wife to look at and see what research is cited for the changing diagrams of Musashi and Yamato:

http://homepage1.nifty.com/watakan/yama ... to_aa.html"

Google now has a Translator Tool Bar which is a huge asset for sites like these. This page successfully translated to english using the tool bar.

Hope this helps.....
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by lchua »

The AAA guns were so close to the 18 inch guns. do you think the gunners need to hide away when the 18 inch fires?
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by bucketfoot-al »

Yes. As I recall reading,there would be either a bell or a buzzer going off prior to the guns firing and any deck crews would need to get inside immediately, lest they be blown off the ship, knocked out or even killed outright by the shock wave of the gun blasts.

So yes, the open deck mounted AA batteries on the turrets and on the fore and aft deck would not have been manned so long as the main guns were firing 'San-shikidan" (beehive) shrapnel shells at approaching US aircraft. Once the planes were too close for the 18" rifles to reach, I imagine the crews would quickly mount the guns and start blasting away at the planes.
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Doug Hallet
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Doug Hallet »

Al, have not had a chance to call in any favors on translation services, but in the meantime, here is a stunning 1/100 build of Musashi by a German card modeler using everything except plastic. Some of the details are things I've seen no one else attempt and answer a few questions I've always had about the ship:

http://www.kartonbau.de/wbb2/thread.php?threadid=9941
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Seabee Mike »

Amazing Musashi - Google Translator was great on that site.
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by bucketfoot-al »

That card Musashi is absolutely amazing. I didn't translate the site, but is that thing a kit or scratch built?

Doug - On another note - did you get a chance to take a close look at the two photos I was referring to that (to me) seem to offer pretty strong evidence of the extra pair of flight deck AA batteries and the 4 individual AA guns up front? Am curious about your thoughts. When I got those two high resolution pics those details just seemed to leap out at me one day.....
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Doug Hallet »

Hi Al, It appears he used a 1/200 or 1/250 card model as a guide but most everything is scratch-built. I've looked at your pictures and they certainly suggest an AA placement, but keep in mind that with a resolution that poor, we should be careful not to see in the picture what we're predisposed to see. The dark area may also simply be due to shadow or the vagueness of film development. For all we know, emplacements may have been bolted to the deck in one location, and then moved to another when some officer decided they were better suited elsewhere, confusing those survivors who asserted later their known positions. BTW, your March picture appears to show the makeshift emergency rudder, which is stowed inside the hanger well. The artist of the Wikipedia picture is a German who has also provided pics of other IJN and Russian ships. There may be a way to get in touch with him.
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by bucketfoot-al »

Doug Hallet wrote:Hi Al, It appears he used a 1/200 or 1/250 card model as a guide but most everything is scratch-built. I've looked at your pictures and they certainly suggest an AA placement, but keep in mind that with a resolution that poor, we should be careful not to see in the picture what we're predisposed to see. The dark area may also simply be due to shadow or the vagueness of film development. For all we know, emplacements may have been bolted to the deck in one location, and then moved to another when some officer decided they were better suited elsewhere, confusing those survivors who asserted later their known positions. BTW, your March picture appears to show the makeshift emergency rudder, which is stowed inside the hanger well. The artist of the Wikipedia picture is a German who has also provided pics of other IJN and Russian ships. There may be a way to get in touch with him.
Hi Doug - What do you mean by "March Picture"? Can you link to it (I presume it is on my website)?
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Doug Hallet
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Doug Hallet »

http://ultimatebattleshipyamatosite.tri ... 000314.JPG

Upper right hand corner of the well. I think its visible in a couple of the Sibuyan Sea pictures too. Of course, same disclaimer as goes for AA mounts in these fuzzy pics.
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bucketfoot-al
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by bucketfoot-al »

Doug Hallet wrote:http://ultimatebattleshipyamatosite.tri ... 000314.JPG

Upper right hand corner of the well. I think its visible in a couple of the Sibuyan Sea pictures too. Of course, same disclaimer as goes for AA mounts in these fuzzy pics.
Ah yes - "March 1945" photo. Yes, I agree - there seems to be something reflecting the light in the well there. And if that is where they sometimes stored that emergency rudder, that might well be 'it'.

To change tracks - what do you think about the two single mounts apparently visible in the following photo as mentioned above? Looks pretty convincing to me.

http://ultimatebattleshipyamatosite.tri ... 5?i=95&s=1

Go to the full size image and you can see both of them behind the sandbags aft of turret # 1, starboard side.
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Doug Hallet »

I really can't see anything definitive. I suppose if I had to choose, I'd go with single mounts based on weight of precedent. But, why put single mounts there and no where else (except maybe the stern.
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by bucketfoot-al »

Doug Hallet wrote:I really can't see anything definitive. I suppose if I had to choose, I'd go with single mounts based on weight of precedent. But, why put single mounts there and no where else (except maybe the stern.
For that matter, why go with .25 cal peashooters instead of .40 cals that might actually do some damage to our armored planes? Who the heck knows? Those who did are long dead, and the archives consigned to the fire in 1945, as you know. I think it goes in the category of "this is the way we do it and so this is the way it always must be" Japanese WW2 military philosophy. And we know how well THAT worked out for them. :heh:

All that's left is our Sherlock Holmesian detective work! :big_grin:
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Doug Hallet »

This is amusing - a 1:1 mock-up of Yamato's deck area on the patio outside the Yamato museum in Kure is naturally weathered to various shades of medium grey, while the 1:10 model inside remains brand new Hinoki yellow...

I know which one I will choose when I get to the painting phase.

http://www.alivenotdead.com/attachments ... .thumb.jpg

the commentary is pretty amusing and spot-on too....
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Senkan »

I say the deck would be a little lighter than that in that picture. I doubt they scrub that deck as much as the crew had to on Yamato. It would be no where near the prestine deck on the 1/10 model.
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by able »

Image
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Doug Hallet
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Doug Hallet »

The last post is in Chinese and doesn't seem to have any relevance to the string. I'd be careful about the web address posted on it. Someone should probably remove it.
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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Timmy C »

He was trying to link to a photohosting site that forbade him from posting the picture on other sites. I approved it hoping that the poster would notice and try to post a picture from a different source. Hasn't happened yet, however :( It would have been good, too, considering he posted a pretty nice model in the RN G3 Battlecruiser thread.
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able

Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by able »

sorry for last post,I only want to show two model of super YAMATO,hope this time work.

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Re: Calling all IJN Yamato & Musashi fans

Post by Cliffy B »

:woo_hoo: Now THAT'S friggin' awesome!!! Have anymore photos Able? I'm sure more that a few of us are interested in how you constructed her.
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