The Ship Model Forum

What an amazing build !

I've just had a double corneal fracture

JIM BAUMANN wrote: " My " Bretagne had been scrapped in 1880..... (!! )
but the image DOES I think ) show a slight up-sweep forward of the underwater colour ? )
...
I have been studying the photo images x 3 of her with no conclusive thought--other than
the same ' strake ' ( rubbing strake for boats?) appearing in all 3 images

so ... what do my peers think??

best wishes
Jim Baumann

Hi Jim,

The wooden ships all had 'belting' timbers, these were first placed directly onto the the frames when these were erected. The other skin planks were then added in between the belting. These belting timbers stood typically well proud of the other skin planks.

But at the height just above the waterline, these could be something different indeed, and might be a 'timber fender' or a rubbing strake. In particular as it seems to reduce towards the ends of the ship and isn't visible at the stem or the sternwood. Given the period of the ship, second half of the 19th century it might have been able to cope with iron or steel vessels riding alongside, hence the better protection against rubbing.

Maarten may be on to something here. Isn't this the time that the steam tugs were used to move the big warships around?


Great work on the shot racks and masts!
The masts look fat indeed, especially the mizzen when I compare it to ships of Napoleonic times. This build is teaching me a lot of how much ships of the line evolved in their last 50 years of existence!

The bowsprit cap looks a bit thin at the moment, but I guess you plan to beef it up a little?

JIM BAUMANN wrote: I found it quite impossible to find suitable railing of anywhere near the right shape;
( maybe I was looking in the wrong places...-or not enough outside-of-the-box ? )

because MW chum Rui Matos found the solution for me at Starling Models...

Glad I could help Jim!


Cheers,
Rui

Hello all again--

I have had to have a short break from the Bretgane-- because my beautiful Peugoet 504 cabriolet caught fire........... on April 14 and the Insurance company are being unhelpful.......


It has occupied all my time.... on the plus side it has improved my angry letter writing..!
Back on the model building bench....

The aft railings for the 2 x stern-walks have exercised me somewhat.... !!


Having received the Starling Models security fencing, alas the spacing was too wide still for my liking--

-it would be just perfect if someone wants to build the Imai 1:150 Napoleon... ( the kit of which I have...?!)

here is one for sale @ � 249.99 (!)
https://www.kingkit.co.uk/product/imai- ... 1-napoleon
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but back to the world of 1/700 Bretagne

I had to find a suitable close-spaced railing...!

MW.com member Fin&Tonic in the main forum suggested torpedo net shelving from the Toms Modelworks Mikasa PE fret

I ordered from e-bay USA--it was pretty expensive by the time it landed in the UK....

===> but 'nay mind..... its Results that count !!

and it really was fine and very close... !!
Bending and shaping the soft brass Tom's PE shelving to suit the very curvaceous aft platforms to sit on TOP of the platform rather then the edge was very challenging,
I used a variety of different diameter metal tubes to roll over the shelving/ railing applying pressure on post-it note pad
to achieve the curves....
The actual shaping was done with the platform ' stuck' onto the sticky end of the post-it-note pad and using blue tack to hold the railing in place
.

Once the rails had been pre-bent for later application to vessel...( safely in a closed box!)

I installed the two aft stern-walk platforms (very fiddly indeed )

These were tacked into place with small spots of water thinned white glue to give plenty
of adjustment time--and when the white glue had set ad all was parallel

I subsequently in-filled with droplets of CA on on the end of a ( discarded!! ) Cats whisker
( very flexible and precise to place glue applicator--especially when the whisker is installed into a pin-chuck... (!)

I had been puzzling-- for some time-- how I could make the ' belaying pin racks' at the base of the masts...
for the huge amount of ropes descending from the rigging aloft

this is a useful excerpt from a period photo of the ship in construction--
giving me an idea of the proportions and height

Tricky to make as they are very small in 1/700

The actual making of the frame structure used cut down 1/350 2 bar railing of various sizes
The lower 'rai'l had the same amount of turning blocks as the upper 'rail ' had had belaying pins

AHA...? belaying pins--out of the question ( for me ) making individuals and drilling holes etc etc
In this small scale repeatability an even spacing is the key...(?!)

I used 'Yagi' ariels from the WEM KGV 1/350 PE set

and when the 'pillars' had been thickened up with piece of brass hand rail
and the ' belaying pin' rows and the turning blocks had been added .... it made a fair impression of the real thing 700 times smaller!


The main mast and mizzen mast pin rack benches have been made--( images next time )

Still an amazing job

I maybe have some old sailing ships in stock in 1/700 scale if it can help you

Very sorry to hear about your Peugot. I always thought that this was one of the most beautiful and elegant 'cabriolets' ever built

wefalck wrote:Very sorry to hear about your Peugot. I always thought that this was one of the most beautiful and elegant 'cabriolets' ever built

I hope you see chance te restore it, Jim... Good luck!
But enjoy the lovely work you're doing on the Bretagne!

Hi Jim

I am still very attentive to this construction and I am really surprised by the laborious work of the ship. I am building a Yamato and on this and other ships I have come across some things for which I find a solution simply by thinking: How would Jim do it, taking advantage of any material?

I'm sorry about your car, I recommend that if there is a consumer protection organization in your country you can raise the case there.
Recently I have achieved some small things through these means although they have taken a long time.
Greetings

Hello all--

a while since my last update,...
a variety of reasons--- unusually warm weather makes whizzing about in classic cars very attractive...

along with a most excellent family holiday on the amazing Isle of Man in the middle of the Irish Sea
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UX5CaDGoqL8 ( ghastly AI voice- but a fair overview )

( the Isle of Man Steam packet ships have inspired me -- one of their large paddle-steamers ( 1876-1908 ) (ben-me-Chree II ) will be a future project... )
came home with 8 books on the Island ships....
===================================================================================================

Still awaiting the 3 D prints ( guns and gun port lids amongst other detail )
and I cannot really mount the ship until the 2 bottom row of guns and lids have been installed-

-the mounting would very much ease the handling of this model and lessen the risk of damage.
Once mounted I can complete the deck details, step the masts, and affix and align the spars in readiness of setting sail...! ( sounds easy eh!)

=====================================================================================================

Meanwhile I have been doing stuff-- time consuming stuff....

The masts had iron bands around them-- as seen on near contemporary VALMY ( 1:48 (!) model-- these are depicted as bright bands
These are spaced regularly up the mast ( spaces measured according to the plans) ...

and over the top of the lower masts on the fwd face is a reinforcer piece of tapered stout timber that is also strapped on .

Artist's and modellers for decades have depicted the bands as being black on ships of the age of sail.... and attractive it looks....

BUT ......photos and some paintings suggest that in the closing years of wooden wall ships these bands to have been painted 'mast' colour...


and then arose the question of how make the bands so as not to look over-scale whilst having the suggestion of being proud of the mast faces....

I think I solved it (quite elegantly and repeatable ! ) by using 0.3mm wide lining decal ( Fox decals from the UK model railway world )


and the same for the bowsprit

I had painted the masts using WEM ' RN buff '--- which is fine in 1:1 scale ,

but on reflection perhaps .... seemed a bit 'strong ' in 1/700

Therefore.....-once the 'bands' were affixed I over-coated with a lightened mix of Buff and white
so as to allow the bands to be just visible -- but they will get another light coat...
The spars....

-there are a lot....14 of them !

I made some jaws of fine brass strip 'lashed' on , for the mast-ends of the
lower boom and upper gaff for the spanker sail on the the mizzen mast
and then I applied some very thin threads to the centre of each of the horizontal yard-arm ( 12 )
so that there would be a mechanical bond to the masts in addition to glue.
The spars have now all had the first coat of paint .

The stun-sail booms will be added after the sails have been attached to the yards



......alas all this is still some way away....

soon to be more I hope..!

Hi Jim,

very elegantly done, the iron mast hoops! These indeed easily become too dominant.

Just as general info: until the early 19th century these were ususually made of rope, wound around the mast multiple times and painted in pitch tar, just as the standing rigging. Around 1830 the 'new' material iron became the practice (creating new problems as well, like rust impairing the strength of the wooden mast), and by the end of the century the masts themselves were often made of iron or the even newer material of steel, rolled as a tube.

But in the case of Bretagne the hoops most likely were made of iron, as you have said.

As a car guy, it pains me to see the Pug in such a state. I really hope that you can salvage her.

Thanks pascalemod....
the reconstruction cannot begin until the Insurance is resolved- - good news is that I have located a good used...
==> (the holy grail)... SERIES 1 Bonnet with narrow flutes...
Series 2 bonnets more common but wrong for that car despite it fitting the aperture
======================================================================

meanwhile away from classic car chatting....

I made and added the belaying pin rails and installed to the port and starboard bulwarks and poop deck

these old sailing ships carried epic amounts of rope; there are very few period photos on-deck that could illustrate the sheer volume

In my view most sailing ship models under represent the amount length of the rope tails
if the forestay is for example say 20 metres long--the the halyard rope ( up and down) for that headsail needs to be double that plus the tail to the belaying pics so conservatively say 45 + meters long (!)

therefore when the sail is hoisted at least 20 metres of tail would at the belaying pin end!!

I do have one photo that shows the sheer volume of line on these ships--
in this instance of the ship in the era of being having been relegated a training school ship they have stowed the line on the mast
but just look at the volume!
this contemporary model of the 'Valmy' also ( under?!) illustrates some the rope masses
so how to represent these big coils in 1/700 ..? this is tricky...

I wanted to use a copper wire that would give volume a bit thicker than true scale to give volume
but to have less windings ...


I taped up and inserted into a pin chuck two differing small drill bits to form oval loops as a long spiral
and coloured it with dark brown ink
These spirals were then slipped off the shanks

and cut with a scalpel to represent differing lengths of rope tails
These were subsequently squashed sideways to make the coils narrower and flattened in pliers to make them thinner

now...
traditionally one thinks that ropes would be belayed on the belaying pins.... and the coils looped around the head of the belaying pins

but the pins are not tall enough on most gaff rigged boats and yachts that I have sailed on
leave along a square rigger of these dimensions to act as a cleat AND total rope stowage.

I have seen on 20 Century square riggers photos that the belaying pins had a strap attached at the lower end
that would allow the coil of rope to be placed within the strap and the loose end to be slipped over the belaying pin top.

To deploy--they simply slipped off the webbing/ rope strap and the coil would be neatly deposited in the deck ready to be paid out
once the rope had been un-cleated from the belaying pin

So with this in mind I placed the rope coils ( held up by a 'virtual' and ergo invisible strap..(!) ( that I may try to indicate/simulate /imply later!
just fwd and level with the pin bench cross members

Indeed, too short rope coils is a mistake frequently seen on models. I gather this is partly also due to the fact that often ropes are slightly oversize (particularly in smaller scales) and then the coils would appear too bulky. And: model rope is comparatively expensive when bought in, so some people may want to economise on it.

On the other hand, when you have never sailed yourself, you may not realise, that you need also a considerable extra length of whatever rope in order to be able to hold and work it. On large ships you may need length for 10 or 20 or more men to tuck on it. This means you may need 20+ meters extra to work the line, in addition to the length going up and down the mast times four, if its going through double blocks.

I was struggling exactly with the way of hanging the coil over the belaying-pin that you described. It's easy in 1:1, but making this one longer loop hitched over the pin is not so easy on a model.

Chapeau to trying to do that in 700-fold reduction in size

OMG!!!


Rope coils! in 1:700 scale... oh Jim, you're just as insane as Marijn van Gils or EJ Foeth! Wefalck, you almost qualify as well...

But of course I admire the four of you tremendously!

In 1/700 taking a meter or so of old electrical wire apart to the core strands give you more raw rope coils than you can ever use in a lifetime. The bottleneck is time, not cost of the materials.

wefalck wrote:Indeed, too short rope coils is a mistake frequently seen on models. I gather this is partly also due to the fact that often ropes are slightly oversize (particularly in smaller scales) and then the coils would appear too bulky. And: model rope is comparatively expensive when bought in, so some people may want to economise on it.

On the other hand, when you have never sailed yourself, you may not realise, that you need also a considerable extra length of whatever rope in order to be able to hold and work it. On large ships you may need length for 10 or 20 or more men to tuck on it. This means you may need 20+ meters extra to work the line, in addition to the length going up and down the mast times four, if its going through double blocks.

I was struggling exactly with the way of hanging the coil over the belaying-pin that you described. It's easy in 1:1, but making this one longer loop hitched over the pin is not so easy on a model.

Chapeau to trying to do that in 700-fold reduction in size

Jim, will you weather the deck a lot with tar? The ropes should have been (id imagine?) covered with tar, etc so deck would be pretty dirty after use, if I reference active sailing ships.

Or the plan is to keep it pristine?

Hello all

sails...
New small update....

Buckle up--its quite a read!

Reefing bands and reefing pennants...

Reefing, ==> the practice of making sails smaller to cope with stronger winds
also called 'shortening sail'
On square riggers this is effected by lengths of rope that pass through an eyelet on the seam of the sail,
often in a reinforced section; - when the crew pull the sail up to the yardarm ( with the crew standing on the footrope of the yard)

and using the pennants and securing the bundle by tying the two ends of the pennant rope in a reef knot (!!) over the top of the yard arm
( arghhh! not my cup of tea....!! )

In my experience of sailing some classic sailboats....( racing and crusising Gaffers, Deep dipping luggers, cutters etc

In ' most ' fair weather the reef pennants are not reeved through the eyelets.
as they bang about and chafe the fabric as well as the stitching
( as well as lessening the laminar flow along the surface of the sails, reducing the sails efficiency )

I have studied pre-19 Century sailing ships in paintings and the reefing pennants appear to be reeved most of the time

( extreme reefing facilities for all sails aside from top sails !! )

Late 19th century sailing ships --like Bretagne and similar,,,, the situation is not as clear cut.

The reason I am querying this -because to depict the reefing pennants reeved in 1/700 is riven with potential issues , mainly of being clunk and / overscale
and I would like to depict the sails possibly with the reef bands but no pennants reeved ....

Fortunately we have a number of photos of sail and steam/sail ships of the era as well as some fairly accurate artists depictions.

I would like to conclude/ deduct that it is permissible to depict the sails wit the reef bands... but no pennants reeved...
but I am not entirely sure !
I present my ( confusing/ confounding ) evidence below!

Opinions and advice very welcome!

an etching of Bretgane with reef pennants reeved
and a painting without reef pennants reeved ( though its looks like they could use some !! )


Messr Roux-- an accomplished and prolific marine painter not only painted the Bretagane ( without sails )
but also her contemporary ships, the Napoleon and The Valmy among many others.

The interesting thing is that in the paintings -by the same artist -sometime the reefing pennants are reeved,,,, and in others not

examples below...

a French sail steamer Fleurus with visible reefing pennats reeved
With reefing pennants on Napoleon ( 1852) similar scene Napoleon without reefing pennants reeved
( tantalisingly the vessel behind Napoleon is probably the Bretgane... !
close up


Valmy without...





Onwards to photos...
a sail steam ship- under sail-- with reef pennants reeved... ( I think! )
and a similar ship with definitely no pennants reeved
and another vessel of that era without pennants reeved
and yet another vessel without pennants reeved

and lastly another superb view of a ship of that era clearly showing
no reef pennants reeved ..... and lastly a sail steam Corvette with reef bands but no pennants reeved...

what do you all think?
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I have been trying out techniques with small sails-- panel paper and shaping sails enclosed below a few image so of the process ...... and in the last image... despite my protestaions experimenting with drawing the reefing pennants on in a drawing programme....?!

Awesome work!

My understanding was that the reef points were always rigged. The more so as they were actually sewn to the sail on one side, with a knot on the other side. Or there was a knot on both sides. Reefing is a dangerous operation, when the sails where brailed up there would have been simply not time for the delicate operation of rigging the points first, with the heavy sail whipping about.

I would perhaps use some extremely thin wire to depict them.