HMS Prince of Wales

[Sutho]

Colour B could well be MS2. Like you I think the colour clip makes it look like B5 but when we look at the B&W photos the shade is too dark to be B5. I think we need to find several B&W photos of a ship we definately know has B5 on it to compare to.

I know HMS Hood was in 507B and my WEM tins have B5 and 507B pretty much identical.

Here is HMS Hood and it does apper lighter in 507B than what we are saying B5 is on HMS Prince of Wales:



More images I have found with paints according to Raven:

HMS Cleopatra in MS1, B5, B6 and MS4a


In this we can see MS1 and B5 at the bow. I think that B5 in this instance does have a tone dark enough similar to what we find on Prince of wales.


Here is one really good one of HMS Kent in MS1, MS2, B5 and 507C


I can clearly see 507C right at the stern followed by MS2, immediately after that is B5 (very faint) and right after that is a tiny patch of 507C before MS1.

HMS Trinidad had MS1, 507A, B5, MS4 and MS4a

In this case MS1 is right in midships with B5 supposedly the dark patch at the stern surrounded by MS4 which is making MS4 look likely for the ligher shade of POW as B5 stands out in the same contrast with MS4 as it does in the POW photos. 507A is supposed to be the dark patch forward on the hull roughly below the bridge structure.

Another photo of HMS Renown with what is supposed to be MS1, B5, MS3 and 507C

Like Prince of Wales it does show a similar contrast between MS1 and B5. Again on the hull below A turret this next photo is supposed to be a patch of B5


Also some better photos of POW in Singapore - you can note at the bow here if it is MS4 and MS3 then they are almost indistinguishable:

You can still see the pattern there and I think this is a better exposure of the ship.

[EJFoeth]

My WEM 507B has the blueish tint of B5 and is darker (more blue even).

About HMS Kent you wrote:507C right at the stern followed by MS2, immediately after that is B5 (very faint) and right after that is a tiny patch of 507C before MS1.

Doesn't it start with a colour too dark to be 507C?

I wonder if the camouflage for HMS Cleopatra is officially recorded; it was also applied to HMS Euryalus so I suppose so (I'd really would like to see documentation).


If I make a colour analysis in the most vague terms:

POW_12.jpg

I'm still left with C&D being close in colour, nearly indistinguishable in some images.

[Sutho]

My WEM 507B has the blueish tint of B5 and is darker (more blue even).

About HMS Kent you wrote:507C right at the stern followed by MS2, immediately after that is B5 (very faint) and right after that is a tiny patch of 507C before MS1.

Doesn't it start with a colour too dark to be 507C?

I wonder if the camouflage for HMS Cleopatra is officially recorded; it was also applied to HMS Euryalus so I suppose so (I'd really would like to see documentation).


If I make a colour analysis in the most vague terms:



I'm still left with C&D being close in colour, nearly indistinguishable in some images.

I agree C and D could be close and indistinguishable. The last photo in my post above it looks that way when POW docked in Singapore. To date that is the best photo I have found of the ship in Singapore. I believe the contrast is correct as you have people in the foreground.

In regards to other black and white photos - if the photographer had any filter over the lens of the camera then some shades will be extremely altered. That is probably why there is extreme contrast in some photos and it is probably due to some filters.

In regards to my WEM tins B5 and 507B are identical.

[EJFoeth]

POW_13.jpg

This is a pic of both WEM tins in the shade, Canon Rebel XTI using default white balance. The difference I see on my monitor matches what I have on the tins. The center of the lid is painted with the tin contents, showing no difference with the lid. B5 is a bit lighter than 507B which itself is quite blueish.

[Sutho]

Thanks for that photo. My tins of WEM paint are exactly the same. They look almost identical. I have ordered some MS4 and will gently paint over the B6 and add MS3 to my model to see how it looks. By judging the Singapore photos it is clear that the pattern at the stern that there were still all colours in existance when the ship arrived in Singapore. That photo on the other page was obviously not focused correctly. Even the bow photo of POW in Singapore you can see all the colours.

By changing my paints all I am doing is switching B6 to MS4 and the paints Raven said in order pretty much remain the same. I think MS2 could be a good alternative to B5 but I am not prepared to change my model to that extent as it is a bit too difficult to paint a fully constructed model. At the moment all I will have to touch is the hull which I can live with.

[Sutho]

Ok I got my tins of WEM MS3 on Monday and have painted the hull only of my ship. I have to admit that the colour shade of MS3 looks very much like we are seeing in this colour movie you have posted.

At the moment it looks like MS3 is supposed to be in place of B6.

I am just wondering if there are any other colour photos of Prince of Wales in existance that will help with other areas of the ship. Its a pity that the British did not have such brilliant colour photography that the Germans had during WWII.

[Sutho]

OK I am after some help here with suggestions. I have done more bitmap images and have attempted a rough plan of the upper works. At the moment I will run with MS1, B5, MS3, MS4 and 507C just for the time being.

I would like some help with the upper colours as what people see and agree on are correct shades for A to E. I have observed there is a bit of 507C on the upper structure as there are very faint darker patches of colour D on the main turrets etc. Although this is a rough start I am hoping we can all agree on a contrast chart on A to E at least even if we dont agree on what colours.



Please look closely at the port side of turrets A and Y as I have added colour patches D to the top of them where it faintly appears in B&W images. That is the reason I believe the turrets to be 507C. 507C is very close to MS4 in WEM paints also. There are some secondary turrets I did not colour as I am not sure what they were painted in.

[EJFoeth]

I have observed there is a bit of 507C on the upper structure as there are very faint darker patches of colour D on the main turrets etc.

I do not see E on the superstructure anywhere. As far as the bridge goes: it is very difficult to make out any pattern there. You have some blue below the compas platform; I think that is merely the shade from the corrugated structure of the wind baffles. Some shots do suggest the top HACS is bluish; but not the pedestal structure below it. However, as canvas covers were placed around these directors, it might be just that. I have one frame from the shot of HMS POW arriving in Singapore on Glorious IWM A3 format, and it shows no dark tint, or any discoloration of the bridge other than in your sketch (including that odd patch on D on the port side bridge). I can upload a shot if those covers, if needed.

Please look closely at the port side of turrets A and Y as I have added colour patches D to the top of them where it faintly appears in B&W images. That is the reason I believe the turrets to be 507C. 507C is very close to MS4 in WEM paints also.

I also have trouble making out E of D on the port side of the turrets. However, I do not think 507C and MS4 are not close. The pictures that Dick showed of the model with MS4 as D gave the wanted contrast with E in B&W.

What I have on the starboard side of the bridge is not enough to make out any colour differences for the open decks except these vague frames from Critical past



Here I have no trouble running D over the turrets and bridge with spots of C to explain the contrast om B-turret. Note the discoloration below the bridge tangent the critical past logo, 9 0'clock position (deck with the lower pompom director position)/



Discoloration just the deck overhang. Might even be 'old paint', difficult to make out on other shots, even from the same reel, or there is a patch of C over the starboard bridge structure.

[Sutho]

I have observed there is a bit of 507C on the upper structure as there are very faint darker patches of colour D on the main turrets etc.

I do not see E on the superstructure anywhere. As far as the bridge goes: it is very difficult to make out any pattern there. You have some blue below the compas platform; I think that is merely the shade from the corrugated structure of the wind baffles. Some shots do suggest the top HACS is bluish; but not the pedestal structure below it. However, as canvas covers were placed around these directors, it might be just that. I have one frame from the shot of HMS POW arriving in Singapore on Glorious IWM A3 format, and it shows no dark tint, or any discoloration of the bridge other than in your sketch (including that odd patch on D on the port side bridge). I can upload a shot if those covers, if needed.

Please look closely at the port side of turrets A and Y as I have added colour patches D to the top of them where it faintly appears in B&W images. That is the reason I believe the turrets to be 507C. 507C is very close to MS4 in WEM paints also.

I also have trouble making out E of D on the port side of the turrets. However, I do not think 507C and MS4 are not close. The pictures that Dick showed of the model with MS4 as D gave the wanted contrast with E in B&W.

What I have on the starboard side of the bridge is not enough to make out any colour differences for the open decks except these vague frames from Critical past



Here I have no trouble running D over the turrets and bridge with spots of C to explain the contrast om B-turret. Note the discoloration below the bridge tangent the critical past logo, 9 0'clock position (deck with the lower pompom director position)/



Discoloration just the deck overhang. Might even be 'old paint', difficult to make out on other shots, even from the same reel, or there is a patch of C over the starboard bridge structure.

Thanks. I understand what you mean. I suspected the paint on starboard side of B turret would have to be MS4 as it looked too light to me to be MS3 which is why I assumed that the upper structure would be 507C.

I would love to see whatever other photos you have. If you would like me to email you some bitmaps that you can change the colour on yourself let me know as I think we are getting onto something here with the actual pattern of POW.

[EJFoeth]

The sides of the turrets are quite confusing to me too. On some pics they appear very light, others not so. With a bit of tumble home on the sides, they reflect differently.

Most of my pics are either here or to be found on websites, plus scans from a few publications and what I purchased from IWM!

You can send me a small email at efoeth at zonnet.nl, saves some time drawing a linesdrawing...

[Sutho]

bitmap sent. Although the image is not perfect it will do for coming up with the pattern.

I was also confused with the port side also as it looked 507C on the top of the aft superstructure to me. I am aware on the foward funnel the searchlight platforms the aft facing of that is definitely a darker shade I was thinking MS4 if the funnel was 507C.

[Sutho]

I am reviewing more critical past images. Adding to our woes already it would appear that the hanger doors are camouflaged as well.

I am assuming this picture is the catapult system and the photograpehr is looking forward towards the hanger bay.


Then there is this other picture which suggests to me that 507C did exist on the upper works

[EJFoeth]

Indeed, the camouflage carries over the front and rear of the superstructure area around the catapult. But this is fortunately covered fully by shots from critical past.

[dick]

You can see how the camo pattern on the hangar doors carries on to link with that on the rear of P2 5.25 turret....and from there onwards to the portside hull.

[Sutho]

I have made a few adjustments of my contrast pattern at the moment to reflect what I have seen. This is subject to change of course but here it is so far:

[Sutho]

Come on any comments yet on my updated chart. How close do we all think we are getting to solving its full camo scheme?

[EJFoeth]

I've started my own chart for some healthy competion nearly done... Comments? Yes, you have E on the upperworks where there is none

Well, perhaps on the 2nd 5.25 gun?

[Sutho]

This is the only picture that is still making it difficult for me to understand the colours



Notice that the aft HAC director clearly has colour D on its barbette (the HAC forward of Y turret) To me the colour of the aft structure port side looks lighter than shade D on the hull.

While I am being convinced that the upper works are likely to be all D except for a few places that would mean the aft facing of the searchlight platforms on the fore funnel is colour C (MS3). I can agree that this fits.

When I look at the fore funnel it clearly looks colour E to me.

Y turret must be MS4 on the port facing with B5 and MS3 patches. For the aft upper structure to be MS4 then the aft HAC barbette might be MS3 (colour C).

[EJFoeth]

To me the colour of the aft structure port side looks lighter than shade D on the hull

I agree. But if you look at the D-panel wrapping around the stern, you get a good impression how the contrast changes with the angle of a surface towards the camera. The colour D on the aft superstructure before the taper is a bit darker as well so that it is lighter isn't very suprising? I'll study the pic a bit more on the aft of the funnel searchlight platform. On this image it does look a bit darker, similar to #2 & #3 5.25" port side turrets which I believe to be (mainly) C as well.

Note that the patch of E on the aft gunnery director is no longer E in my notes although a patch of blue appears on early pics. I'm making my own contrast map which I'll post once sufficiently done (a few days or so?).

[Sutho]

I am not sure if these prints are any good from IWM - these are small for example but it is when the ship was in its camoflauge.





Then there is HMS Howe in a colour scheme here that may be able to help as well: