Calling all Benson-class & Gleaves-class DD fans

[robertandy]

Thanks again Rick, Wilkes sure has an interesting history! It also looks like the positions I will be scratchbuilding are similar to the ones in the pictures of Mayo above, so I think I will be able to come pretty close in 1/350th anyway!
Edited to add: Any idea the colors of the rectangles painted on the bridge wingin this photo?
http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/0544104.jpg
Rob

[Rick E Davis]

Nope.

[robertandy]

HA! I figured as much, but thought I would ask!
Rob

[robertandy]

Looking at the pictures of Wilkes after her '43 mods am I counting 4 single 20mm mounts correctly? two up front and two by the aft stack?
Rob

[Rick E Davis]

Four 20-mm guns on the early GLEAVES (and early BENSON) class destroyers is correct after the two twin 40-mm mount upgrade. The early BENSON-GLEAVES dual class (DD-421-444) were authorized to retain two TT mounts until April 1945, which limited 20-mm armament to four guns, unless the aft TT mount was "temporarily" removed. Why retaining of both TT mounts was so important has been somewhat surprising given the air threat and general lack of surface forces to use the larger torpedo armament against. The BENSON-GLEAVES class destroyers were the primary Fleet Destroyers for USN in the Atlantic theater during WWII and powers to be wanted at least some destroyers available there with a large torpedo armament. Actions in the MED with the Italian campaign showed how short-sighted it was to have a weak AA armament. The FLETCHER class were assigned to the Pacific and most only served there. A few FLETCHERS did serve on limited assignments to North Africa or the RN Home Fleet, but none on a long-term period beyond a two-three months.

[robertandy]

Rick you know an amazing amount about these ships! Thanks again
Rob

[shaylocos]

I hae the Dragon kit for the 1940 USS benson How close I this to it's appearance in 1941-42? Is it as is close to as built?

Horace

[Rick E Davis]

The 1940 BENSON kit represents the six original BENSON class (DD-421, 422, and 425-428) (and with changes to the stacks, etc. ... aka kit-bash with a GLEAVES class kit ... could represent an early GLEAVES class unit) in the original as completed configuration until "about" July 1941 when the King Board mods took place. These involved for the six BENSON class units (all in DesRon 7) with removing the searchlight tower, adding half shields with canvas covers to the two open 5-in mounts, removing one torpedo tube mount, adding more 50-cal MGs for a total of ten, relocating the searchlight, etc. Other GLEAVES class units NOT in DesRon 7 lost the 53 mount, retained both torpedo tube mounts, and had twelve 50-cal MGs. Both configurations had other refinements as well. In early 1942 the 50-cal MGs were replaced by 20-mm guns in stages. So the kit out-of-the-box represents a BENSON class unit from completion in 1940/41 to July 1941.

Images and discussion about these variants is described in the earlier pages of this thread.

[Rick E Davis]

Something I found on my latest trip to NARA that may be of help to those working on a mid-1941 version of the GLEAVES class units with twelve 50-cal MGs. I pulled paper drawings for USS PLUNKETT (DD-431) and only found misc diagrams and things like ventilation routing drawings. What you will find in the NARA collection of paper drawings is a crapshoot, and this certainly was the case this time. Normally the best hope is to get a copy of the ship's FINAL configuration, and sometimes you luck out getting an original layout. Getting a layout of the ship somewhere in between (which I was hoping for) is pretty slim.

But, on a drawing showing the routing of ventilation for the various decks I found the attached drawing of the aft deckhouse showing the layout of the six 50-cal MGs and the other equipment located there for the aft con and ventilation motors/fans. It is somewhat ironic to find this particular configuration drawing in PLUNKETT's file, give she was one of three GLEAVES class units (DD-423, 424, and 431) that retained the 53 mount and only had the two aft 50-cal MGs seen on this drawing on the aft deckhouse. I suspect this was a "generic" layout drawing for ALL of the early GLEAVES class units (DD-444 and prior), since the 53 mount location is noted. The ventilation and aft con were located in the same locations on both GLEAVES class configurations.

This drawing isn't a complete drawing in that it doesn't show the full bulwarks around the 50-cal guns nor the ready-use ammo boxes, but that can be derived from photos. The usefulness of this drawing is in giving the exact (I assume exact) locations of the six 50-cal MGs and relative to the frame numbers (21-in spacing between frames) and locates the other equipments located on the aft deckhouse. Scaling should be possible to figure out distance from the centerline of the ship/deckhouse.

[1943Mike]

I hope this is not OT.

I'd asked a question or two in this thread some time ago and got a helpful response. This time, in order to save time, I'll include a link to my questions which I've asked on another site (Finescale Modeler) so that you can see what suggestions and advise I've received and, hopefully, add your comments/suggestions.

Here's the link: http://cs.finescale.com/fsm/modeling_su ... px#1666557

Thanks in advance for any and all build information you can give me.

Mike

[Rick E Davis]

Mike,

A couple of things to remember configuration-wise;

1) DUNCAN had a single quad 1.1-in mount and ONLY ONE Mk 51 director, if any director, just before the quad mount and not the two as shown on the BUCHANAN kit,

2) I don't know for sure where you got the illustration of BUCHANAN, but it isn't an accurate depiction for DUNCAN (or BUCHANAN) in 1942 (looks like BUCHANAN after she got her 40-mm guns) ... there wasn't an elevated platform before the bridge in 1942.

You have the best and only image I'm aware of for DUNCAN before her loss. Most of the rest of the BUCHANAN kit should work for DUNCAN unless otherwise noted in the photo.

I have primarily built in 1/700 scale myself and don't use a lot of PE, so I'm not a good person to ask. Tracy White is a good person to advise you.

[1943Mike]

Rick,

Thanks for the information. The color illustration of the Buchanan is from the Dragon artwork in their limited run Cyber Hobby edition of the USS Buchanan as she appeared in Tokyo Bay in 1945. (I flipped it in Photoshop to match the direction of the photograph of the Duncan under way).

I was using it mostly to establish where the boot top is positioned and to view her with measure 21 but did not notice the discrepancies you've pointed out. Thanks. Your eye caught things I very well might have missed. The illustrations in MY Dragon instructions do NOT have that raised platform in front of the bridge so I couldn't build it that way but your observations regarding the directors and the single quad mount are reminders to me that I must gather this kind of helpful information before proceeding.

This is the kind of input I need.

Mike

[biggles2]

http://www.navsource.org/archives/05/tn/0546409.gif
I would like to paint up a Hobson in this scheme (ms. 15). Two of my sources say the pic was taken in '43, on-line sources say '42. Does anyone know better?
PS: sorry about the tiny pic; it was much bigger before I posted it!

[Rick E Davis]

You should have posted this question under the BENSON-GLEAVES class Fans Thread or the Camo Thread or even on the Main page.

Anyway, as best I know this photo shows HOBSON in mid-late 1942. The copy of this photo I scanned is dated 1 September 1942 (the crosshairs was on the photo for some reason). HOBSON was painted in a different Ms 12mod scheme when completed in March 1943 after being commissioned in January 1942. By 2 April 1943 she was painted in Ms 22 after a refit during March 1943. So exactly when she was painted in the scheme (called Ms 15 by some) seen in this photo is unknown. I would guess during her post-shakedown yard period (summer 1942).

So I don't know when you wish to model HOBSON, but this scheme would likely (exact dates unknown by me) be correct from about August 1942 to March 1943. That is a guess without digging into her official records.

[Cliffy B]

Always wondered about that photo and "Ms. 15", thank you for clearing it up! So its just Ms. 12 mod in a unique pattern? Excellent

So...any idea what her other side looked like?

[Rick E Davis]

This scheme is called Ms 15 as far as I know. It looks to be a cross between Ms 12mod and the dazzle schemes.

Reference Raven's Camo article from SHIP CAMOUFLAGE website ...

MEASURE 15

Developed directly from First Admiralty Disruptive Type. Used in 1942 on at least three vessels, the battleship INDIANA, the destroyer HOBSON, and the tanker TALLULAH.

Colors: 5-N Navy Blue, 5-0 Ocean Gray, 5-H Haze Gray, White, 20B Deck Blue (revised). Vertical surfaces to be a disruptive pattern of S-N, 5-0, S-H, and White*.
Decks and horizontal surfaces - 20B.
Counter shading - no information available.
*HOBSON was the only ship to use White.

Nope, as far as I know there has been a starboard side photo surface ... yet.

The NHHC website does have a distant color photo of HOBSON ... http://www.history.navy.mil/photos/sh-u ... /dd464.htm ...

[biggles2]

Supposedly both sides were the same. Anyway , I've already painted the hull both sides the same, and glad the camo pattern carried over into '43.

[biggles2]

Did Hobson still have the quad 1.1" and Oerlikon on the aft structure at this time? It looks like it in the photo.

[Dick J]

Nope, as far as I know there has been a starboard side photo surface ... yet.

Try the Floating Drydock's Camouflage 2 book. There is a shot of a tanker on one of the last pages that has Hobson in the distant background. The book enlarges that view of Hobson. Apparently, the starboard side scheme is close, but not an exact mirror image of the port side.

[Rick E Davis]

Dick,

Thanks, I would never have looked in Book 2. I had completely forgotten about the supplement to book 1. The patterns do appear to be a little different, but not by much. The angle makes it harder to tell exactly.

Biggles2,

HOBSON retained the quad 1.1-in mount until her March 1943 overhaul when she was upgraded with two twin 40-mm mounts and seven 20-mm guns. In the photo attached, the elevated 20-mm gun before the bridge and the two bridge wing 20-mm have yet to be installed when the photo was taken. Likely installed after running trials.