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Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Fri Feb 10, 2023 4:16 am
by marijn van gils
Neptune wrote:Certainly on that bow part and the similar structures on that aft, it appears to be a huge added value for the model. :thumbs_up_1: :thumbs_up_1:
Thanks! Yes, the technique enhances the crispness and 3D feeling of a model but needs details to work on, so the effect is most noticeable on the most detailed areas indeed.
The sides of the hull have less detail (at least before guns and gunport lids are added), which is one of the reasons I will paint some planking effect on it later. :big_grin:
Neptune wrote:All that's left now is to try I guess (and miserably fail :big_grin: )
Yes indeed! And don't worry about failing, just take every little bit of progress as a win. It will build up over the years, and in the end you will be surprised of what you'll be able to do!
It didn't come to me instantly too. I'm lucky to have had many years of armour and figure modelling experience, two disciplines at the forefront of painting technique, and I've had maaaany hours of practice and many failures too. ;)

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Sun Feb 12, 2023 4:56 am
by SG1
Wow! Some top notch painting and a most interesting and detailed tutorial! THANK YOU for sharing it! That's really amazing Marijn and most inspirational!

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 4:20 am
by marijn van gils
Many thanks SG1! :smallsmile: :cool_2: :smallsmile:


Meanwhile, I highlighted all the details.
I do this with the same fine brush, painting fine layers of Humbroll enamel thinned down a little with white spirit. But you could easily use oil paints or acrylics too if you prefer.

I built up the effect in two layers: one colour a bit lighter than the base color, and a second one even lighter.

The highlights make the detail �pop� further, and lend a certain �sparkle� or �luminosity� to the general feel of a model. Hard to explain in words, but I like what it does� :big_grin:

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I also painted the window frames white (which I should have probably done earlier�). This still needs a bit of clean-up.

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If you compare with photos from the last post, you can see that I also painted some fake shadow lines on some of the mouldings to make them look more complex than they really are.

This idea was taken a bit further on the head rails, with more complex detail.
The upper and lower head rails should have moulding detail on them, but because these are thin and complex shapes, it would have been very difficult to impossible to add this detail in construction (without 3D-printing skills or equipment�).
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So, in this kind of case, it can be easier to simply paint the detail on in �trompe l�oeil�!
First, I paint the fake shadows, starting with drawing one line:
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Next, this is corrected with a clean brush. The technique is exactly the same as with shading existing details, only now I paint it on a flat surface instead of along existing details.
To the right of the brush is corrected, on the left not yet:
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First line finished:
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Second line added:
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And filled in with short lines, completing the pattern:
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The lower head rail is done the same way:
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And after this has cured, fake highlights are painted on for a more 3D effect:
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Note that the other details have also been highlighted. (except for the figurehead, which I will paint later)

The finished bows, still enlarged a lot but at least from a slightly less unflattering distance: :big_grin:
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Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 5:49 am
by wefalck
Your �trompe l�oeil� really 'tricks the eye' ! Looking very good. :thumbs_up_1:

It's not so easy to find the right balance, but I think on such miniatures one has to exaggerate the 3D-effect a bit, particularly, when the model later is viewed in diffuse light.

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Fri Feb 17, 2023 6:34 am
by Maarten Sch�nfeld
Hi Marijn,

The painted 'ropes' on the gallion are brilliant! And these almost tune in with the slightly larger ropes on the 'slooiknie�n,' the knee braces supporting the beakhead. I remember you made those from twisted copper wires, right?

Except for one point: the latter are 'right' ropes, whilst the former are 'left' twisted ropes. As they are now next to another this springs immediately in the eye. Is this on purpose? Or should either be different? I recall 'left' rope is the norm, and only for certain applications (half the main stays) also 'right' rope is used. Is this also reflected in the carved wooden 'ropes' on the beakhead embellishments (and the transom?)

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Sat Feb 18, 2023 5:46 am
by marijn van gils
Thanks guys! :smallsmile: :smallsmile: :smallsmile:
wefalck wrote:It's not so easy to find the right balance, but I think on such miniatures one has to exaggerate the 3D-effect a bit, particularly, when the model later is viewed in diffuse light.
That is my opinion too (obviously). ;) Even under my workbench lamp, I feel it looks better this way.
Maarten Sch�nfeld wrote:the knee braces supporting the beakhead. I remember you made those from twisted copper wires, right?
Yes, indeed! They were embedded about halfway in a groove I cut in the plastic beakhead, and flanked them on both sides with stretched sprue.
These ones I could build, because they could be constructed on a sturdy 'background' surface. And they don't taper...
Maarten Sch�nfeld wrote:Except for one point: the latter are 'right' ropes, whilst the former are 'left' twisted ropes. As they are now next to another this springs immediately in the eye. Is this on purpose? Or should either be different? I recall 'left' rope is the norm, and only for certain applications (half the main stays) also 'right' rope is used. Is this also reflected in the carved wooden 'ropes' on the beakhead embellishments (and the transom?)
Well spotted Maarten! ;)
You are referring to the difference between hawser laid ('ordinary rope', left to right) versus cable laid (three strands of hawser laid rope twisted together, right to left) rope. In the rigging, this difference most certainly is important indeed. But I don't know if it was in the stylised carvings.
Honestly, I just followed Boudriot's plans and drawings of the 74 gun ship. At the transom, they 'ropes' are twisted differently at each side to get a symmetrical effect, which makes sense to me visually. At the beakhead, it makes a bit less sense to me (I also saw the difference and found it a bit weird like you do), but did it anyway. I'm sure Boudriot knows better than me! :big_grin:
Anyway, the exact decoration of Le Redoutable is not known, especially for the beakhead, so anything is just an educated guess...

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Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 4:04 am
by Maarten Sch�nfeld
I can't argue with that, and I saw that you also refer to another modeler, Jacques Fichant, who did exactly the same:
viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167367&start=176

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 6:04 am
by Martocticvs
It is superbly effective! I can't quite wrap my head around how you've managed to get such neat, fine lines. I wish I could manage that when I'm working on canvas!!!!

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Sun Feb 19, 2023 7:13 am
by wefalck
I think the trick is not to desperately trying to paint the fine line, but to 'correct' it with the surrounding colour until it is right. One can see this strategy sometimes on canvasses of painters of old, when the brush-strokes have not been completely smoothed out.

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:08 am
by marijn van gils
Yes, that is the trick indeed!

Correcting with the surrounding colour is what you need to do when working with acrylics (because they dry fast).

With oil paints and enamels, there is time to correct the line before the paint dries. I very gently wipe away the uneven edges with a clean brush moistened with White Spirit. But it requires a light touch, with the tip of a small and fine-pointed brush.

The technique itself is quite simple, but of course it takes practice to make very fine lines. And some patience... ;)

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Mon Feb 20, 2023 3:56 am
by wefalck
Patience is the single most important tool for ship-modelling :cool_2:

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:13 am
by marijn van gils
And now, some more thin lines! A lot more thin lines�
I painted the planking effect, like I did on Victory.

This is the blank canvas:
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I like to make the plank seams �heavier� around the battle damage. It seems logical that the seams would have opened up more because of the impact forces, and it seems to work well visually.

Therefore, I start from the battle damage, painting a shadow line around on of the impacts.
The techniques, materials and colour are exactly the same as the shadows and the tromp-l�oeil details. After all, this is just another trompe-l�oeil detail�
The lines are not feathered with the clean brush yet.
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Next, I paint the plank seams that are in contact with the impact. I make them quite dark by not thinning the paint too much. Of course, I have them continue through the impact area too.
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Now, I refine both the lines and the shadow around the impact with a clean brush slightly moistened with White Spirit.
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Now, I add the next line. In this case, I opted to make it a little fainter, especially on the left which is further removed from the impact. I did this by using the same colour, but simply thinning the paint more.
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And this line is refined too:
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Lines can painted even fainter, and don�t need to continue all the way, like I did with the lowest seam.
Finally, I shaded the rest of the impact.
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Next, I repeat this on the nearby impact area:
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With the heaviest seams done, this provides a kind of �roadmap�, which makes it easier for me to determine where and how dark/light to paint the remaining seams.
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The black areas also receive plank seams. But because dark shadows don�t contrast well with dark base colours, I paint them with light colours, mimicking the highlights.
I used the darkest dust colour I used for filters earlier (which is still pretty light), mixed from Abt 503 Flesh and Dust.
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After this has fully dried, I added highlights under some of the shadow lines on the ochre areas, and shadows above some of the highlight lines on the black areas. I painted these only here and there, to avoid making the effect too heavy. The application is the same as with the previous lines.
I also highlighted the impact areas.
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At this point, I only had �large� areas of impact splintering, but no tiny �chips�. With the plank seams in place, I find it easier to determine where to place these small chips for best effect, so I kept them until now.
I painted them with the same Humbrol base colour (72) as the large impact areas, and added a shadow above and a highlight below each.
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And as a final weathering effect, I painted dirt streaks with raw umber oil paint. I will add some rusty streaks coming down from the shroud chains later, after those chains are added.
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Many people paint streaks by applying a dot of undiluted oil paint, then �pulling� it down with a clean wide brush.
I prefer to paint the entire streaks as precisely as possible with thinned oil paint, then refine and feather the edges as needed. So basically the same technique again as the fine lines�
I find this gives me much more control over the final appearance of the streaks.

In the photos above, you have seen only the starboard side of the Redoutable, which was at that point unengaged in the battle. So, it shows only a couple of shots that went through-and-through.

But her port side is being pounded heavily by Victory, so the battle damage is much heavier:
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BTW, this technique for painting seams can be used to mimic the seams of metal plates on steel warships too:
http://www.modelshipgallery.com/gallery ... /index.htm

I didn�t add highlights for these though, except when I wanted to mimic a raised edge.

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:15 am
by marijn van gils
The only thing left to be painted above the waterline was the figurehead.
Many French figureheads at the time seem to be have been painted plain white.
I basecoated the figurehead in grey. I kept this rather dark, so I could achieve a lot of depth when highlighting.

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Next, I highlighted, following basic figure-painting technique and principles. I used acrylic paints (AK 3gen), but you can use enamels or oils too if you like.
Because I had basecoated with a relatively dark colour, most of the contrast was established in this step.
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Finally, I emphasized the deepest shadows with the same raw-umber + black oils I used for shading the rest of the ship.
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Of course, the photos above are too much enlarged to be very flattering, in order for you to see the technique involved and the placements of highlights and shadows.

Even in this shot, the figurehead is still enlarged very much, as it is only about 11mm tall in reality:
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A view on the finished stern:
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And the entire hull, showing the contrast in battle damage between her starboard and port sides:
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Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:48 am
by wefalck
:thumbs_up_1:

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 8:58 am
by Maarten Sch�nfeld
WOW!

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 9:56 am
by SG1
Unbelievable! That's suupergreat Marijn! :cool_2:

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:09 pm
by dafi
Oberaffentittengeil!

XXXDAn




+++Sorry, no translation available ;-)

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:13 pm
by Maarten Sch�nfeld
dafi wrote:Oberaffentittengeil!
:rolf_3:

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 12:41 pm
by Devin
Amazing work as always, Marijn. The more I TRY to paint straight seam lines on that 1/700 USS Enterprise hull, the more I appreciate your skill in doing so on your models. It's a surprisingly difficult (for me) task.

Re: HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

Posted: Wed Mar 22, 2023 1:15 pm
by Dan K
Stunning!