The Ship Model Forum

New Year,,, New Project....

I have been ruminating on the construction of this model for quite a while now ...

Why Bretagne 1855 .?
...well we have a large framed print above the Fireplace on our house...-- so it haunts me.... daily !


FIRST A BIT OF HISTORY
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Bretagne was a giant is sailing ship terms, displacing nearly 7600 tonnes, 270 feet ON DECK-- plus the huge bowsprit fwd and spanker boom aft. She carried 1170 crew.
Her eight boilers produced 4800 shp to turn the single screw, allowing the vessel to reach well over 12 knots - in 1855 !! -- under steam along she had a range of over 1000 miles
Her vast and tall sailing Rig lent her virtually limitless range , under sail she was recorded at 13 knots.
Her 130 guns were a formidable armament in her day

She was in action in the Crimean war as part of the French Navy contingent alongside the allied forces of the British and Ottoman Navies against Russia . Naval construction design progress overtook her and she was rendered obsolete in 1866 and was decommissioned to be as a Barrack ship. She was scrapped in 1880.
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So again... why Bretagne.... to see if I can. hhmmmnnn! we shall see!

The Hull worries me more than the rig... I have rigged a 1/700 sailing rig -including foot ropes -before, that is a lot less daunting than creating a 140 open gunports !!

1/700 sailing ship rig

.... Sooo.... where to start...?

Fortunately there are some EXCELLENT plan resources on the internet-- giving reproductions of the original drawings, sail plan and deck layouts etc

I have the drawings at near full size... 15000 pix across
and now also and scaled to 1/700! == giving an ON-DECK length of 12 cm = 120 mm or 4.74 inches

There are also some reasonable period images some in very good resolution--construction and in commission
The in-build images illustrate very some of the challenges of the two part gunports with semicircular apertures for the barrels...


.........I think I will resort to Photo-etching these to ensure repeatability, and 3-D printing for the prominently flared gun muzzles.



a period daguerreotype photo from the internet
and many paintings, in various degrees of accuracy to the real ship
But most importantly.... My hero and Pathfinder ,...German brilliant large scale modelmaker Karl
who in the construction of his wood scratch built gargantuan model in 1: 75 ( hull on-deck over 1650 mm or 5 ft long !
encountered and solved innumerable problems and issues
in his inimitable, very thorough, accurate, 'engineery and pragmatic way, thus with his foot-steps
creating a pathway for me to follow.

Sadly he passed away before completing his masterpiece... and as such in honour of his memory
I shall do me utmost to finish my model to the best of my ability

RIP Karl
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So my plan of construction is outlined below... please comment if you see a flaw in my thinking!



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cut hull blank in Jarrah , fore and aft , sheerline to weather deck & waterline width only

Bretagne dimensions are given as WATERLINE length-- ergo

120 mm on deck( allow extra 0 .5 mm for additional sanding )
Sstick on ( Pritt!) printed scale side elevations ( as per plan and flipped)

Centre-mark/prick all the gunport centres on the ( near parallel ) sides

(but not yet extrapolate around the curves bow and stern! )

Drill through 5mm DEEP with a thin pilot drill. ( I bought a fine miniaturised Pillar drill

and adjustable machining table clamp to place the model under the drill ( more ) PRECISELY!

Create the tumble homed hull and undercut bow using negative athwart-ships templates

Form the bow and stern - and extrapolate the positions of the apertures fore and aft using photos and plans

Drill open the small pilot holes to the diameter of the gunport OUTER frame sizes 1.5 mm deep

( each row is different size gunport! )

Cut and form square-ish corners with a No 11p scalpel -- insert brass squares cut from my huge stocks of

old-overscale-square-aperture-ladders PE glue in and secure with CA

( as done before on 1/700 Jeanne d'Arc--except this time it will be much better! )

Run automotive stopper ( ultrafine filler as used on classic cars! ) over the gunport rows

Fine-sand until the brass , wood and filler are uniformly smooth

Form decks, bulwarks , gratings , Fore and aft raised decks, hammock stores funnels, bridges, stern walks, masts, spars and sails

this should see me through to March....

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true to the above....

Hello!

I will be very curious about this, interesting project, beautiful ship!

Ambitious project, for sure! Good luck!

I'll be following as well. As always.

Excellent premises for another materpiece-to-be! On standby for updates

I had been following Karl's project and we had various discussions about it until unexpectedly passed away. RIP.

That's interesting approach for the gun-ports. What is the brand of that automotive filler? I have been using a cellulose-based one, which is very good, but dries a bit too fast and tends to be rather brittle (which makes for good sanding).

If I had a project like that, I gather I would have made the hull from acrylic glass, building up the full from layers and milling traverse slots for the gun-ports.

Talking about artillery, I have a lot of primary information on the guns of the day - large coloured lithographs from an official publication (150 years ago I would have been shot as a spy here, if they found this in my library).

" >>> ...building up the full from layers and milling traverse slots for the gun-ports....<<<
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That is a very good plan also-- but you used that word MILLING,,...

Being of a rather analogue nature...--for me my new Pillar drill is advanced stuff...

and being rather nervous / shy of differing material thermal expansion these days ....

( ala my permanently plugged in Normandie model )

I noted that Acrylic moves quite a lot -- even when compared to brass/copper/stainless whicj was my
issue... whereas a hardwood like teal has a sub-10 value...

You being a 'sciencey and engineery ' modeller


-- what are your thoughts

I find the listing below both interesting, instructive as well as alarming!

ABS (Acrylonitrile butadiene styrene) thermoplastic 72 - 108
ABS -glass fiber-reinforced 31
Acetal - glass fiber-reinforced 39
Acetals 85 - 110
Acrylic 68 - 75
ALLVAR Alloy 30 (negative thermal expansion) -30
Alumina (aluminium oxide, Al2O3) 8.1
Aluminum 21 - 24
Aluminum nitride 5.3
Amber 50 - 60
Antimonial lead (hard lead) 26.5
Antimony 9 - 11
Arsenic 4.7
Bakelite, bleached 22
Barium 20.6
Barium ferrite 10
Benzocyclobutene 42
Beryllium 12
Bismuth 13 - 13.5
Brass 18 - 19
Brick masonry 5
Bronze 17.5 - 18
Cadmium 30
Calcium 22.3
Caoutchouc 66 - 69
Cast Iron Gray 10.8
Celluloid 100
Cellulose acetate (CA) 130
Cellulose acetate butynate (CAB) 96 - 171
Cellulose nitrate (CN) 80 - 120
Cement, Portland 11
Cerium 5.2
Chlorinated polyether 80
Chlorinated polyvinylchloride (CPVC) 63 - 66
Chromium 6 - 7
Clay tile structure 5.9
Cobalt 12
Concrete 13 - 14
Concrete structure 9.8
Constantan 15.2 - 18.8
Copper 16 - 16.7
Copper, Beryllium 25 17.8
Corundum, sintered 6.5
Cupronickel 30% (constantan) 16.2
Diamond (Carbon) 1.1 - 1.3
Duralumin 23
Dysprosium 9.9
Ebonite 70
Epoxy - glass fiber reinforced 36
Epoxy, cast resins & compounds, unfilled 45 - 65
Erbium 12.2
Ethylene ethyl acrylate (EEA) 205
Ethylene vinyl acetate (EVA) 180
Europium 35
Fluoroethylene propylene (FEP) 135
Fluorspar, CaF2 19.5
Gadolinium 9
German silver 18.4
Germanium 6.1
Glass, hard 5.9
Glass, plate 9.0
Glass, Pyrex 4.0
Gold 14.2
Gold - copper 15.5
Gold - platinum 15.2
Granite 7.9 - 8.4
Graphite, pure (Carbon) 4 -8
Gunmetal 18
Gutta percha 198
Hafnium 5.9
Hard alloy K20 6
Hastelloy C 11.3
Holmium 11.2
Ice, 0oC water 51
Inconel 11.5 - 12.6
Indium 33
Invar 1.5
Iridium 6.4
Iron, cast 10.4 - 11
Iron, forged 11.3
Iron, pure 12.0
Kapton 20
Lanthanum 12.1
Lead 29
Limestone 8
Lithium 46
Lutetium 9.9
Macor 9.3
Magnalium 23.8
Magnesium 25 - 26.9
Magnesium alloy AZ31B 26
Manganese 22
Manganin 18.1
Marble 5.5 - 14.1
Masonry, brick 4.7 - 9.0
Mercury 61
Mica 3
Molybdenum 5
Monel metal 13.5
Mortar 7.3 - 13.5
Neodymium 9.6
Nickel 13.0
Niobium (Columbium) 7
Nylon, general purpose 50 - 90
Nylon, glass fiber reinforced 23
Nylon, Type 11, molding and extruding compound 100
Nylon, Type 12, molding and extruding compound 80.5
Nylon, Type 6, cast 85
Nylon, Type 6/6, molding compound 80
Oak, perpendicular to the grain 54
Osmium 5 - 6
Palladium 11.8
Paraffin 106 - 480
Phenolic resin without fillers 60 - 80
Phosphor bronze 16.7
Plaster 17
Plastics 40 - 120
Platinum 9
Plutonium 47 - 54
Polyacrylonitrile 70
Polyallomer 92
Polyamide (PA) 110
Polybutylene (PB) 130 - 139
Polycarbonate (PC) 65 - 70
Polycarbonate - glass fiber-reinforced 21.5
Polyester 124
Polyester - glass fiber-reinforced 25
Polyethylene (PE) 108 - 200
Polyethylene (PE) - High Molecular Weight 108
Polyethylene terephthalate (PET) 59.4
Polyphenylene 54
Polyphenylene - glass fiber-reinforced 36
Polypropylene (PP), unfilled 72 - 90
Polypropylene - glass fiber-reinforced 32
Polystyrene (PS) 70
Polysulfone (PSO) 55 - 60
Polytetrafluorethylene (PTFE) 112 - 135
Polyurethane (PUR), rigid 57.6
Polyvinyl chloride (PVC) 54 - 110
Polyvinylidene fluoride (PVDF) 128 - 140
Porcelain, Industrial 4
Potassium 83
Praseodymium 6.7
Promethium 11
Quartz, fused 0.55
Quartz, mineral 8 - 14
Rhenium 6.7
Rhodium 8
Rock salt 40.4
Rubber, hard 80
Ruthenium 9.1
Samarium 12.7
Sandstone 11.6
Sapphire 5.3
Scandium 10.2
Selenium 37
Silicon 3 - 5
Silicon Carbide 2.77
Silver 19 - 19.7
Sitall 0.15
Slate 10
Sodium 70
Solder lead - tin, 50% - 50% 25
Speculum metal 19.3
Steatite 8.5
Steel 10.8 - 12.5
Steel Stainless Austenitic (304) 17.3
Steel Stainless Austenitic (310) 14.4
Steel Stainless Austenitic (316) 16.0
Steel Stainless Ferritic (410) 9.9
Strontium 22.5
Tantalum 6.5
Tellurium 36.9
Terbium 10.3
Terne 11.6
Thallium 29.9
Thorium 12
Thulium 13.3
Tin 20 - 23
Titanium 8.5 - 9
Topas 5 - 8
Tungsten 4.5
Uranium 13.4
Vanadium 8
Vinyl Ester 16 - 22
Vulcanite 63.6
Wax 2 - 15
Wedgwood ware 8.9
Wood, across (perpendicular) to grain 30
Wood, fir 3.7
Wood, parallel to grain 3
Wood, pine 5
Ytterbium 26.3
Yttrium 10.6
Zinc 30 - 35
Zirconium 5.7


the filler is

I'm a not science-ish modeller with a skill level way below you or mr Falck but I do have some experience in getting rows of portholes straight on double curved surfaces as I tend to scratchbuild my hulls.
What you are suggesting here may not get you the straight lines of gunports you are after. The classic way to do it is by attaching a flexible strip of wood or styrene (dutch 'strooklat') to the hull. I use quick acting superglue, traditionally small nails were used. Use the strip to guide your drill keeping the drill bit at a constant angle to the strip and you will get a perfectly straight row of portholes. Remove the strip and sand away the glue spots. As you our are not after a straight row of portholes but a straight row of square gunports a variation of this is possible. You can simply built op plating on your hull up to the levels of the row of gunports in stryrene and built the level of the gunports in styrene strip of the right size leaving the square portholes open and the pieces of styrene in between as a support for the next level. This also gives the the exact size of the gunports if you are planning to keep them open. Maybe practice on a one decker or two decker hull first (Agincourt? Gloire?). The link is to my mini guide on drilling portholes. viewtopic.php?f=4&t=157837

Pieter, that's a good point. I had been thinking of the more or less straight sides of the ship, but indeed around the bow, one would certainly need to mill perpendicular to the sides and not to the middle line.

Jim, thermal expansion certainly is an issue when combining different materials and the effect is more pronounced the longer the parts are. Wood (or at least certain species) has the additional issue of swelling/shrinking with changing humidity, as many shipmodellers only too well know.

In real terms considering an expansion coefficient of 0.075 mm / m / K for acrylic glass, this means that your hull of 0.12 m length would elongate by 0.075 * 0.12 * 40 = 0,36 mm when you heat it from 0�C to 40�C (see https://www.pmma.dk/acryl_expansion.aspx?Lang=en-GB). If you did the same calculation for a brass bulwark running along the whole model, you would have an elongation of only 0,09 mm, so a difference of 0.27 mm. Yes one could perhaps see some minor cracks at the ends ...

I have been thinking, however, of a combination of acrylic glass and polystyrene, which is what I am intending to use in my next project. Both plastics have similar expansion coefficients, so I expect no problems.

Having started also a 1/700 rigged ship I am very excited to follow this!

Hi Jim

Well.. what can I say?
You know which ones to pick

Another very educative scratchbuilt log, for sure!
Keep us posted
Cheers,
Rui

Hello Gentlemen;

Note, the hull currently extends up the weather deck only, the installation of the tall bulwarks around the weather deck and the poop deck will change the appearance considerably!
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I have been busy on the Hull of Bretagne... see the results below
.
@ Pieter @ WeFalck
What you guys said about the changing angle of incidence is absolutely true and correct!

However-- I only pricked the centres and drilled the ' locater ' holes down the near parallel sides; only
that way the deep pilot holes--relative to the sheer-line and deck-levels was correct,
==> regardless of how much of the hull sides was removed

( I checked the with green tape )



I subsequently shaped the plan profile, ( significantly narrower on the deck than waterline )
by taking the broad angle off on the beltsander ( crude-- but very fast! )


I cut out lots (and lots ! ) of half section templates to guide the tumble-home shaping
On this solid hull, the hollow shapes of the tumble-home shaping would appear a challenge...

and it was !

I used various sizes Ball shaped grinding tools, as well as 'parallel-sides-drum-with-positive-curved-cone-point cutting-face
( what would be the correct name for that...?? )

these various grinding bits and cutters were installed in my vertical pillar Drill chuck and the the hull mounted on a copper plate,
( low friction and stable larger surface datum plate for handling
This was slid around at various heights along the rotating cutters and grinding tools until an agreeable
and ( near!?) correct shape -according to the templates - was achieved.

a light sanding and then white tape was applied below the pilot holes of all three rows of gunports and the
continuation lines thereof, allowing accurate marking off with dividers for the remaining pilot holes.
Then large enough drill bits ( different size for lower 2 x rows than the upper)
to cut holes big enough for the brass squares to be inserted

( This looks crude and brutal at the moment ) but the holes follow the lines sweetly!

The shape of the hull is hard to see in naked wood...
hence a helpful line superimposed on the photo...

The installation of the gunport brass square frames will follow shortly!

cheers Jim Baumann

I suppose, certain kinds of pattern- or die-maker files would have been useful for working on the convex parts of the hull. There are spoon-shaped ones that give a convenient angle of attack, while the file part itself is flat on the work-piece.

I do have som files of that ilk-- I should have said I also used a variety of scalpel and Stanley blades
as a draw-blade in one direction to unify the hollow as appropriate.

some progress--

I gave the hull a couple of coats of high build primer in readiness to sand off - when hard- to get rid of imperfections.
while that is hardening...
I tried out for size all the ladderstock-in various scales as well as some types of mesh grill and handrails etc that I could cut out
the required size squares for the gunport frames

I found some that were of use for the upper row as well as the weather deck

but nothing for the 2 lower rows...

Peter Hall of Atlantic models came up trumps from the 2 x lower rows of gunports...

1/600 Atlantic Models Liner rails-- single bar--
I now have 3 frets and 3 lengths of rail and I need around 120 plus to allow for mis-cuts, losses and mistakes....
my eyes are going square....

more soon

JB

quick update....

=> the tedium of creating 140 gun-ports and 18 other hull apertures is collective... !!!

but we are getting there

I used tape to establish datums of spacing for the cuts in the wood
( Swann Morton 11 Pointed Blade)
The Jarrah wood is very hard and the blades don't last long on the tips
( the only part that is being used for this operation)

The cutting of wood looks an unsubtle if not crude process to the observer...!
( it is when I do it! )
The ' squarish' apertures are chamfered so that the brass PE square can be centred up
relative to the deep pilot hole ( I also double-checked centres with the use of dividers...
just in case.
The brass squares are tacked on with CA at the lower datum edges and the tuned for alignment.
Small blobs of white glue then locate the upper corners so that the
brass square cannot ' fall in ' . I then fill in between the blobs with CA gel

Ugly huh!!


But with the addition of the ' Stopper filler ' things look much improved


The sanding vindicates that the gun-port apertures
are level in plane to the surface of the hull sides
More sanding with 2000 and more filling

The trapezoid shaped windows on the aft corners --seen here on the real thing in build
shows the corner windows having a trapezoid shape created by the double curvature of the hull


Making these was quite tricky, requiring the brass ' frame' to pulled in opposite corners very gently with pliers
One side - Stb-- is now almost done bar final touch up filling.



The Port side has the lower row of ports completed
just another 2 rows of the same... ( arghhh !!)

more news soon

Jim Baumann

Fantastic! I was really looking forward to this one!

I'm too late for the hull and gun port construction debate. But anyway, I think, in 1/700 your way is probably the most efficient without any compromise to quality. Providing you have a sharp eye and some patience to position the PE frames as perfectly as possible of course, which of course you clearly have.

Did you get the pilot hole drilling technique from one of Philip Reed's books? I believe he used it for his 74-gun Majestic.

I'm already looking forward to see how you will tackle the bulwarks!

I would not only get square eyes, but fingers too ...

Precision work, Jim!

The slightest misalignment of the frames would no longer make the model credible.

Gentlemen...



wefalck wrote ..... >>> I would not only get square eyes, but fingers too ... <<<

I reckon not-- you would simply use your suggested technique ( which I think has all of its own potential pitfalls


Iceman wrote:...>>> The slightest misalignment of the frames would no longer make the model credible.....<<<

that is absolutely correct--I spent yesterday evening checking each port in the mirror

I guess you would have drawn and 3-d printed it?


Marjinn wrote
>>>.....Did you get the pilot hole drilling technique from one of Philip Reed's books? I believe he used it for his 74-gun Majestic....<<<

Nope-- I thought that out myself..but its not hard --I must must look at my Reed books...

>>>....I'm too late for the hull and gun port construction debate. .......<<<<


No you are not!- go on ....-- weigh in ==>how would you have made the hull?

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more new progress & photos shortly !