Pontosmodel 1/200 Bismarck Detail Up Set

[Pete_G]

The etched parts or grills are done by both Pontos and Modelschaltshiffe (the later I have been told being more in scale according to plans but not confirming this at all and open to discussion on the subject) as for the keel and the keel docks plus the area around the propellers it would be interesting to see a resin addition here but would be hard to do

When I refer to the hull bottom I am talking about the changes/ additions represented by the work found on this thread, which to me is outstanding:

viewtopic.php?f=13&t=57213

Certainly resin parts for the dock keels and to correct the housing for the center prop would be nice as well as a template for the drain holes above the boot topping and for proper location of the degausing cable (if we can get people to agree on it!) would be pretty cool.

After all, we are getting parts for control sticks for the 1/200 scale Ar-196 cockpit but ignoring a major area in need of detail.

And speaking of the Ar-196, has anybody done a little radial engine drop in for the plane's engine cowling? I know someone does one for the 1/350 kits.
Mike

Kim,

You were asking for ideas for your advanced set.

Well, why not consider doing a full set of windows for the ship, including

1) All main superstructure windows particularly the bridge,
2) All boat windows for launches
3) Windows for the Arado's.

And possibly lenses for the rangefinders?

You could make these mostly very easily with punches using basic clear laminating card.

I don't think many PE manufacturers include these details so this would be another key
unique selling point for your kit!

Regards

Pete

I would try to design the additional parts on the Advanced set as many as possible though this means making higher the final price of this set.

The best way is to show us any photo or diagram via email or this post thread with comments.aMainly because although we have already many photos or references but we may need the confirmation for the location or right shape.

Thank you
Kim

Thanks Kim,

I have attached some close up images of the windows which I would like you to think about including in your 'Advanced' set.

Now you should be able to calculate the actual 1/200 sizes and dimensions using the model itself.

In terms of cost, remember that most people building this model are already in to the kit for hundreds of pounds, dollars or euros, and so whilst cost is massively important, it is not everything.

For most of us, building a kit of the Bismarck in this scale is a one time only event unlikely to be repeated and therefore get this next set right, like you have done with the basic set, and you will find that the orders will thunder in again - even if the cost is the same or more than your basic set, which I personally feel is already exceptional value for money given the content and attention to detail.

My aim and doubtless others too is build the most detailed, realistically accurate and true 1/200 scale model of the Bismarck physically possible within the limits of modelling so please don't hold back on the detail here for fear of adding a few extra dollars or euros. At the end of the day people will dig deep and pay if the quality and attention to detail is as good as your first set, it's that simple really.

Fantastic work so keep going!

Pete

[Mike Coleman still]

Kim,
I can only agree with what Pete posted above.

I think that for many of us this will be a one time "opus magnus" so show off the skills of the modeler and I think most of us are willing to pay the price for quality, accurate after market details like those supplied in your basic set. IMO that was very fairly priced for what was provided.

I would also hope that our constant pleas for more and more parts are not seen as a lack of skills, greed or laziness on our part but as an affirmation to you that in Pontos we, the modelers, have found not only someone that listens and responds but who also produces an excellent product.

Mike

[Channell]

I hate to think how much $$$ I've spent on my Bismarck.

The fact is there is virtually no end to the amount of detail you can put on that kit. All the aftermarket sets have ignored the miles of conduit line on the exterior bulkheads for example, and the kit only has the conduits molded on on some of the pieces... and even then not very convincingly.

Anyway, I can see myself building another Bismarck down the road, especially if a truly incredible aftermarket set comes along. I'd really like to see something that deals better with the portholes, perhaps completely replacing most of the superstructure bulkheads with PE plates (kinda along the lines of the 1/350 modern Iowa class kits or the Hatchett Bismarck) with the conduit lines on them and open holes for the vents that can be backed with miniature screen as well as portholes that can be backed with styrene glass.

[Mclem53]

Man do you guys have AMS really bad. I can understand wanting to improve on what the kit comes with but 99.9% of the people out there would be more than happy with the Trumpeter kit and the Pontos update kit,and they might not use everything that comes in the update kit because they don't think it warrants all the tedious work sanding off moulded in detail and replacing it.

Yes there are inaccuracies built into all models but when you are finished and the models under the display case you are the only one that will know the difference between what the kit came from the manufacturer and the way you finished it. Quite honestlyI think the Trumpeter kit by its self is a magnificent work of engineering. The slide mould technology of today has allowed an amazing amount of crisp detail to be included with fewer parts than any time in the history of model building. Could it be better? Probably,but at what cost?

I want to thank Mr. Kim at Pontos for producing such a beautiful detail set. I've started on my Bismarck and the photo-etch parts so far have fit just about perfect. What he has provided us with is a real bargain for the price.

[bielingg]

Kim
We thank you for taking us on this great voyage. I am of the war generation and I mean WWII generation .A Bismarck in 1/200 scale is opening the flood gates of great after market products , and for us modelers, there is never enough extra bling to add and to admire.
The suggestion to replace all bulkheads in PE is really a great idea. Not only will it add authenticity but it will lift the model to the next level of awesomeness , if there is such a word.
It is becoming quite common at international shows to see all kinds of models in the raw, no paint and nothing to hide the hours of extra work and devotion.

Bulkeads in shiny brass, what could be better
Gisel Bieling

[Pontosmodel]

Thank you for your advices and comments for the Advanced set.
As almost basic details come in at our Basic set, so we would design some extra Accessories and also some much harder parts for Expert modelers.
So I would accept and add what you've suggested and i think almost of these are possible.

Now we are finalizing LPD, Indianapolis and OH perry, So I think we can resume this Advanced set from late of this month.

Please advice and suggest more by then.

Thank you
Kim

[hymnHim]

Man do you guys have AMS really bad. I can understand wanting to improve on what the kit comes with but 99.9% of the people out there would be more than happy with the Trumpeter kit and the Pontos update kit,and they might not use everything that comes in the update kit because they don't think it warrants all the tedious work sanding off moulded in detail and replacing it.

Yes there are inaccuracies built into all models but when you are finished and the models under the display case you are the only one that will know the difference between what the kit came from the manufacturer and the way you finished it. Quite honestlyI think the Trumpeter kit by its self is a magnificent work of engineering. The slide mould technology of today has allowed an amazing amount of crisp detail to be included with fewer parts than any time in the history of model building. Could it be better? Probably,but at what cost?

I want to thank Mr. Kim at Pontos for producing such a beautiful detail set. I've started on my Bismarck and the photo-etch parts so far have fit just about perfect. What he has provided us with is a real bargain for the price.

I wasn't going to respond to this but I feel I need to. You are right that many (not 99.9%)but many will be very happy with the kit..... good for them. But there exists another segment of modelers who spend many hours pouring over photos, buying and researching all available literature and communicating in forums like this so that they, the .1%, can build the very best representation of that ship. And when a manufacturer specifically asks what should be included within an "advanced" kit, you will see the few who require of themselves the highest degree of accuracy possible, relate to that manufacturer their many wants. Model building should be a joy, and once finished we should admire the fruits of our labor, and that, for myself, is more than a good paint job, as the finished model represents all my efforts and skills. I do agree the kit is a fine kit, but thanks to Pontos and long hours of research and a fair amount of elbow grease we are capable of making a good kit into an excellent one.
Dan

[Channell]

Man do you guys have AMS really bad. I can understand wanting to improve on what the kit comes with but 99.9% of the people out there would be more than happy with the Trumpeter kit and the Pontos update kit,and they might not use everything that comes in the update kit because they don't think it warrants all the tedious work sanding off moulded in detail and replacing it.

Yes there are inaccuracies built into all models but when you are finished and the models under the display case you are the only one that will know the difference between what the kit came from the manufacturer and the way you finished it. Quite honestlyI think the Trumpeter kit by its self is a magnificent work of engineering. The slide mould technology of today has allowed an amazing amount of crisp detail to be included with fewer parts than any time in the history of model building. Could it be better? Probably,but at what cost?

I want to thank Mr. Kim at Pontos for producing such a beautiful detail set. I've started on my Bismarck and the photo-etch parts so far have fit just about perfect. What he has provided us with is a real bargain for the price.

Gotta disagree.

The Trumpeter kit is so full of errors that it actually stinks when the box is opened by someone familiar with the real ship. Certainly the detail is crisp, but too many details are warped, missing or flat out wrong. If you want to build a toy Bismarck to float around the local pond or more likely start to build but then get frustrated and throw the box in your basement it's perfect, but for those with higher aspirations it just doesn't pass muster OOTB.

I really do love the big 1/200 scale warship kits; finally I can build a model ship that looks like it belongs in a museum without going through the hassle of scratchbuilding and/or buying thousands of detail parts individually. I am very thankful for the many aftermarket companies like Pontos making it easier for people like me to do that!

BTW, I didn't get the Pontos Bismarck set but I did get a modern USS Iowa set... it's "top shelf" stuff, let me tell ya! I would love to see that level of quality bumped up to 1/200 scale and applied to the Bismarck super-set and I know my wallet couldn't resist!

[alang]

Man do you guys have AMS really bad. I can understand wanting to improve on what the kit comes with but 99.9% of the people out there would be more than happy with the Trumpeter kit and the Pontos update kit,and they might not use everything that comes in the update kit because they don't think it warrants all the tedious work sanding off moulded in detail and replacing it.

Yes there are inaccuracies built into all models but when you are finished and the models under the display case you are the only one that will know the difference between what the kit came from the manufacturer and the way you finished it. Quite honestlyI think the Trumpeter kit by its self is a magnificent work of engineering. The slide mould technology of today has allowed an amazing amount of crisp detail to be included with fewer parts than any time in the history of model building. Could it be better? Probably,but at what cost?

I want to thank Mr. Kim at Pontos for producing such a beautiful detail set. I've started on my Bismarck and the photo-etch parts so far have fit just about perfect. What he has provided us with is a real bargain for the price.

Gotta disagree.

The Trumpeter kit is so full of errors that it actually stinks when the box is opened by someone familiar with the real ship. Certainly the detail is crisp, but too many details are warped, missing or flat out wrong. If you want to build a toy Bismarck to float around the local pond or more likely start to build but then get frustrated and throw the box in your basement it's perfect, but for those with higher aspirations it just doesn't pass muster OOTB.

I really do love the big 1/200 scale warship kits; finally I can build a model ship that looks like it belongs in a museum without going through the hassle of scratchbuilding and/or buying thousands of detail parts individually. I am very thankful for the many aftermarket companies like Pontos making it easier for people like me to do that!

BTW, I didn't get the Pontos Bismarck set but I did get a modern USS Iowa set... it's "top shelf" stuff, let me tell ya! I would love to see that level of quality bumped up to 1/200 scale and applied to the Bismarck super-set and I know my wallet couldn't resist!

Wow
Somebody with a real attitude problem
Do you pick your own teddy up from the floor or do you have to order somebody to do that also

[Channell]

Wow
Somebody with a real attitude problem
Do you pick your own teddy up from the floor or do you have to order somebody to do that also

Do you have a real counter-argument or just random insults?

[Pontosmodel]

Do you have a real counter-argument or just random insults?

Just leave the counting to After market and save your time.

Kim

[alang]

Hi Kim
Can you advise part number for ladder that fits to part Z5 of kit - above ladders 698 and 705 shown on page 8 of instructions (extreme bottom centre of page) Would it be 704 ??

Thanks for help

Alan

[eyeno0]

Kim
Received my set from FTH today. Very impressed, I particularly noticed the Brass Plaque, which when I got my microscope out, I could see that it actually has 'Blohm and Voss' on it, astounding.
I look forward to your advanced set with eager anticipation.

[Gaston]

Man do you guys have AMS really bad. I can understand wanting to improve on what the kit comes with but 99.9% of the people out there would be more than happy with the Trumpeter kit and the Pontos update kit,and they might not use everything that comes in the update kit because they don't think it warrants all the tedious work sanding off moulded in detail and replacing it.

Yes there are inaccuracies built into all models but when you are finished and the models under the display case you are the only one that will know the difference between what the kit came from the manufacturer and the way you finished it. Quite honestlyI think the Trumpeter kit by its self is a magnificent work of engineering. The slide mould technology of today has allowed an amazing amount of crisp detail to be included with fewer parts than any time in the history of model building. Could it be better? Probably,but at what cost?

I want to thank Mr. Kim at Pontos for producing such a beautiful detail set. I've started on my Bismarck and the photo-etch parts so far have fit just about perfect. What he has provided us with is a real bargain for the price.

Gotta disagree.

The Trumpeter kit is so full of errors that it actually stinks when the box is opened by someone familiar with the real ship. Certainly the detail is crisp, but too many details are warped, missing or flat out wrong. If you want to build a toy Bismarck to float around the local pond or more likely start to build but then get frustrated and throw the box in your basement it's perfect, but for those with higher aspirations it just doesn't pass muster OOTB.

I really do love the big 1/200 scale warship kits; finally I can build a model ship that looks like it belongs in a museum without going through the hassle of scratchbuilding and/or buying thousands of detail parts individually. I am very thankful for the many aftermarket companies like Pontos making it easier for people like me to do that!

BTW, I didn't get the Pontos Bismarck set but I did get a modern USS Iowa set... it's "top shelf" stuff, let me tell ya! I would love to see that level of quality bumped up to 1/200 scale and applied to the Bismarck super-set and I know my wallet couldn't resist!

For the accuracy of the hull's outlines, the Trumpeteer Bismarck is a quantum leap ahead over their misshapen Arizona hull, so at least they have been making progress... And no upper deck depth in 1/280 scale either... No banana warping of the hull is present on mine, though appparently not all have been so lucky (one of the advantages of the hobby shop is you can check before buying)... I have heard some claim the Arizona is actually superior because fewer of the portholes are deformed by the slanting of the hull... Yes, but at the price of making the front upper hull curves inaccurate!

Talk about the tree hiding the forest...

If Trumpeteer's 1/200 Bismarck is poor compared to smaller 1/350 offerings, that would really be inexcusable (the Trumpeteer's anchor bulge is very obviously wrong, and that is disapointing, but at least it is easily fixable): I would be very interested to see unbuilt, or partially assembled, comparison photos to explain why and where the Trumpeteer Bismarck is inferior to smaller scale kits: Given the scale advantage, that would clearly bolster your point, as well as being instructive to those stuck with correcting the larger scale kit...

Gaston

[pvk308]

Gaston:

I bring your attention to this thread

viewtopic.php?f=59&t=146838

I hope it helps show the problems with the kit

[Gaston]

Thanks! I was aware of this thread.

My curiosity is still if the other smaller 1/350 kits have got any of this better, so that the Trumpeteer could have used them as a reference and avoided the errors.

Although it does appear, from the Tirpiz's overturned hull, that some of the issue raised in the linked thread are indeed correct, it is not clear to me how actually prominent the errors are, and how far out the kit is. (The Tirpiz overturned hull photos I have found are all pretty poor: If better photos exist I would really like to see them)

The deck plan shape is claimed to be out, but it is never explained where or how. This would be near impossible to fix, as with pre-cut wood decks there is not much that can be done, but it would still be nice to know just what is being talked about...

I don't think much of the hull's complicated rear underside curves can be determined with certainty from any GA drawings, regardless of the source. A basic rule of thumb is that any drawings of more than a few dozen parts assembled is not a true scale rendition, no matter the source.

I also think the rear hull of the Trumpeteer kit has a much more prominent error (but simpler to fix) than those shown fixed in the thread: Notably that the rear area of the hull, which is sloping upward above the propellers, is actually a flatter surface than it seems, and as a result has sharper "corners" where the sides of this area transition to the vertical, including to some extent all around the stern's bottom. This is actually away from the complicated propeller stems and rudder bases, and so is somewhat easier to "improve" than what is shown in the thread, if not quite a path to a "full" fix...:



Although the kit definitely has some errors, I would like to see if any other kit has proved demonstrably better.

Gaston

[pvk308]

I don't think any current model kit of the Bismarck in any scale has a hull that is totally correct in shape or detail. I know the 1/350th Revel kit is ok around the rear of the hull in regards to contours etc but that's it....... As far as I am aware the plans used to detail the hull in the thread mentioned were from the book Anatomy of the Bismarck and I had read somewhere in another thread, I think it is a 1/100 scale kit being built the hull was detailed with original B and V plans I think the author of that thread was a member known as 109...... please correct me if I am wrong anyone

[Gaston]

Thanks very much for the Revell pointer: I will look it up before correcting the rear hull...

I did find out something real interesting about the 1/200 Trumpeteer deck plan shape, after much effort: The final rounded end curve (in plan) at the tip of the stern is too narrow in radius: In effect, the deck plan view is slightly too "pointy" at the stern end...

Although this might bring the overall length a bit under scale length, I found it is quite easy to remove/carve out 4-5 mm of the stern's deck radius extremity, and change the radius to a significantly broader-looking "rear end" (I did go through the plastic, but not so large a hole resulted when I felt it had gone far enough): This will require cutting the wood deck's extremity to match, and rebuilding in my case the hull's "lip" edge (I scrapped the entire plastic deck sitting surface, so that the deck is slightly "countersunk" by 0.7 mm all around, allowing, in theory, a flush wood deck without too much trouble: It was a major ordeal, but fairly easy to do)

I did not need to remove/alter the nearby deck detail while carving out the rear end's radiused tip, and I don't care if this deck detail now sits too close to the stern extremity. The only other issue I saw with doing this is that the left rear anchor hole is affected, and the sit of the rear anchor will have to be modified to look "untampered with"...

In profile, it does "square up" the stern from the side, and I think that is a good thing as well. The stern profile's lower radius will need squaring up anyways, as I outlined here (I hope the builder of this particular model will not mind my use of his photo, with my added lines, to make the point):



To determine this stern radius (or at least its relationship proportional to the whole ship), I used aerial photos of the Tirpiz, seriously enlarged to overlay this enormous kit to it...



This slightly broader-radius stern shape seems to be depicted more pointy, like the Trumpeteer kit, in most drawings I have seen...

Other photos, when enlarged to the extent I needed, made my computer freeze, so that was the best one I could use... (These other enlarged photos still slowed my computer down, even in the bin basket, and had to be deleted completely!)

This photo confirmed to me that Trumpeteer did a very good job on the Bismarck's bow shape (minus the anchor bulges): Only the peak of the sides of the bow's stem "bulb" are a little too low, and maybe the bow bulb itself a bit narrow, as outlined in the thread linked above...

Thanks again for the pointer to the Revell kit.

Gaston

[Angeliccypher]

I would like to point out that this thread is for the Pontos Detail set. Not the "What is wrong with Trumpeter's 1/200 kit". There are other threads that are better suited for that please.

[alang]

Hi all
Just a small heads up on a wrong part number quoted on instructions.
Page 5 top left hand side - Drill guides - part number 711 should read 732 and 712 should be 731.
Also has anybody else found that there are not enough part number 355 - only 24 supplied but 26 needed ??? 22 on main breakwater (if thats the correct name?) and extra two each side needed on small breakwater set further back.

Keep building.

Alan