The Ship Model Forum

A reminder for all, let's stay focused on the presentation of evidence and engage in civil, respectful discussion. This is not the place for attacks.

The color of ships at Pearl Harbor is a discussion absolutely worth having and has value to modelers. But there is some unpleasant history associated with this topic some may not be aware of. For many reasons, this specific discussion tends to go very badly on this site and others.

This thread is an attempt to create here on MWS a safe place where evidence can be presented, interpretations of the evidence can be thoughtfully analyzed and respectfully discussed, and viewpoints be shared in a meaningful way, in its own place, free from personal attacks, put-downs, accusations and counter-accusations. Keep in mind, MWS needs to be a safe place for modelers to interact and learn.

[b][u]To post here, meet these guidelines:[/u][/b]

1. Presentation of documentary, photographic and video capture evidence is welcome and invited. If you know the photos or video captures are colorized, state so.
2. Posts inviting analysis, interpretation and thoughtful, respectful discussion of presented evidence are welcome and invited.
3. Keep an open mind and be respectful of persons with different opinions and viewpoints.
4. Accept that different photographic and reproduction processes can yield different results.
[b]5. Personal attacks will not be tolerated.[/b]

Any posts not meeting these guidelines may be removed without warning.

Jeff, that red paint on the faces of the side panels where the face plate would normally cover would be red lead paint to protect the bare metal from rust forming.

Thanks John!
It's been a fun journey. Always looking for more.

I wouldn't call it a "hoax". I would call it very incomplete research that was up against a deadline and unfortunately a conclusion was made simply to accommodate that deadline. Then things just snowballed on the "researchers" and they decided to dig their heals in and defend their conclusion instead of being impartial and considering other research and evidence presented to "them".
Although that stance is never a good idea for a "researcher", I can understand them digging their heals in. It doesn't surprise me at all.
What does surprise me is all the people that had no involvement in this research at all, accepting and vehemently defending the "researchers" conclusions.

This is the best view of turret #3 that I've been able to locate. It shows the face plate and guns removed. The red paint you see is where the face plate connected to the side panels.
[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/D0MnFnyL/Screen-Shot-2024-11-24-at-8-55-22-PM.png[/img][/url]

And this is the best view of the aircraft handling crane on her stern that I can find so far. The ship aft of Arizona in this pic is wearing MS-1 camo.
[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/2yJ0XyXy/IMG-0078.jpg[/img][/url]

Hi Jeff
Thank you for your continued research into the issue of Arizona's colors at Pearl Harbor.
It's pretty obvious to anyone who has followed the blue hoax that there never was any evidence that she was painted 5-S.
The photo's are clear enough to anyone who has looked at all of them to see.
Hoax
Thank you

For MANY years I have been searching for color footage of USS Arizona's #4 turret following the attack. It has been quite the endeavor!
The #4 turret was the largest/furthest aft structure still above the water that wasn't directly impacted by the flames. The flames reached as far back as the #3 turret.
Very quickly after the attack happened, workers started stripping the ship of usable things, including the aft two turrets. By February 1942, both turrets were well into the stripping process.
Both turrets were turned to starboard to allow easier access for the removal of the 14" guns. After the guns were removed from the turrets, the only thing left was the side panels of the turrets minus the range finders. The vents on the sides of the turrets just below the missing range finders were also still there.
In these two photos you can see the progression of the dismantling.
On turret #4, notice the turret vent just below the opening that used to house the range finder. In the photo on the right, notice also the hose coming out of the range finder opening. They were pumping out water from the bottom of the barbette. Finally, in the photo on the right, notice the plank extending across the top of the turret. That plank is propped up on each end by smaller wood blocks laying directly on top of the turret sides.
[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/V6DDspnH/Screen-Shot-2023-04-28-at-10-24-04-PM.png[/img][/url]
This is a still taken directly from the John Ford footage of the wreck. I obtained this footage from NARA. It is not altered in any way.
In this shot you can see the remains of turret #4 from the port side of the ship. You can see the starboard side of the turret with the hose extending out of the range finder opening, pumping water over the turret vent. You can also see that same propped up plank extending across the top of the turret.
I like also the detail that can be seen on the barge YC 308. Check out her red port side light. I had no idea barges had port and starboard sides.
But obviously, the MOST noticeable detail about this still is the color of turret #4. It is most definitely NOT 5-S.
[url=https://postimg.cc/0zntBB2w][img]https://i.postimg.cc/FK521MMD/Screen-Shot-2023-05-17-at-10-22-23-PM.png[/img][/url]
[url=https://postimg.cc/rzy1wNc8][img]https://i.postimg.cc/J7ZPKp2B/Screen-Shot-2023-05-18-at-7-45-16-AM.png[/img][/url]

[quote]I'll let you be the judge of whether you are seeing fire damage or 5-S Sea Blue paint on the stacks.[/quote]

Fair enough :-)

That's a tough question to answer. Do I believe she was in MS-1? Absolutely! She was most definitely NOT in Modified MS-2 with 5-H on her turrets that certain people want you to believe. Let's think about it for a minute. MS-1 through MS- 8 was discontinued in September. Why in the world would they paint a ship modified MS-2 months after that MS was discontinued. As far as the stacks are concerned, is the fire damage the darker part of the stack or the lighter? I'll let you be the judge of whether you are seeing fire damage or 5-S Sea Blue paint on the stacks.

The fire's impact on the funnel seems reasonable.

So, in your opinion at this point, do you feel any aspect of WeeVee was undergoing a repaint, or was she pretty much just in 5-D/5-L?.

There is a lot of discoloration on the forward stack. Numerous crew members accounts comment that there was a massive fire on the boat deck between the two stacks. Here is just a couple of the comments:

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/jjsrMbny/Screen-Shot-2023-04-21-at-6-14-33-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/KYJhVHtw/Screen-Shot-2023-04-21-at-6-18-25-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/SK3bkztf/Screen-Shot-2023-04-21-at-6-51-43-PM.png[/img][/url]

If we take a closer look at that forward funnel, you can see the forward half is still 5-D but the after half is much lighter.

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/qMSRDzpy/Screen-Shot-2023-04-21-at-6-03-28-PM.png[/img][/url]

Although not as pronounced as the forward stack, the opposite effect can be seen on the aft stack with the forward half lighter than the after half.

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/W1Z4BT4K/Screen-Shot-2023-04-21-at-6-06-11-PM.png[/img][/url]

Other images from behind the ship show how dark the back half of the aft funnel was and also show how light the aft part of the forward funnel was.

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/MZ0HVDZd/Screen-Shot-2017-12-13-at-7-34-46-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/nMCNyFYP][img]https://i.postimg.cc/jqXKJCWt/Screen-Shot-2023-04-21-at-7-13-16-PM.png[/img][/url]

I never doubted that she was in 5-D, though the case for a partial, in-process repainting seems viable. Her funnels seem lighter than 5-D.

I thought you had pointed that out during one of your builds. :-?

I think we can finally put to bed that USS West Virginia was wearing anything other than MS-1 with 5-D/ 5-L as paint colors.

What we are seeing here is a VERY burned and battered 5-D paint job.

No, not even what some have claimed when they said "Modified Measure 2 - In the middle repainting from 5-D to 5-S. 5-D on her hull, 5-S on part of her upper works, 5-L on her fighting tops in accordance with Mod. MS-2. Photos show 5-H Haze Gray barrier coat on her turrets at the time of the attack, apparently her CO was not happy with 5-S straight over 5-D."

Maybe I'm missing the 5-H Haze Gray barrier coat on her turrets that her CO made the crew apply?

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/NMwkpKZj/4-B99-FB8-D-7-B7-C-4-AF2-AADC-BAE12-C8-E42-A5.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/FRggq9Qg/493-A5-BBD-6-B3-B-494-D-91-C9-DE282-B587175.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/2ykFNPkp/7625-CD1-F-AF93-41-EB-9919-3-A67-DD5-C2-CC2.jpg[/img][/url]

[quote="Dan K"]I just went with it.[/quote]
No one can prove you wrong (yet). Though I'm feeling like a trip to the archives is in order to try and do just that... ;)

[quote]The whole idea of the deck paint was to eliminate the very noticeable visibility of the wood decks as observed from the air. .......... So, an evaluation was created to prove that painting was a good idea. [/quote]

Exactly. So, the wood decking was covered with this new paint mix. However, the other horizontal deck surfaces were already dark (Dark Grey?), so there was no need to paint them for a temporary experiment. I think this is what is seen in the overhead photo. That's how I interpret it, anyway.

[quote]As for if the linoleum covered decks were painted over. I kind of doubt it, but don't know for sure. [/quote]

My linoleum coverings are speculative. We do have a hint, as Jeff discovered, of California's signal bridge deck being covered with linoleum. Plus the 1940 color photo of Idaho's signal deck platform also covered in a brown linoleum. (Maybe it is a flagship thing.) I just went with it.

As far as Linoleum brown on outside weather decks go, a lot more research is needed to nail down why it appears some ships had it while others did not. Here are some stills of USS Colorado and USS New Orleans going under the Golden Gate Bridge in the late 1930's. Neither appear to have Linoleum brown decks.

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/zvYJ17Qq/Screen-Shot-2018-12-19-at-9-03-48-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/GtPb3Y0G/Screen-Shot-2018-12-19-at-9-03-14-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/bv0gTwjL/Screen-Shot-2018-12-19-at-8-58-35-PM.png[/img][/url]

Maybe the Colorado Class Battleships did NOT to use Linoleum Brown? Maybe it was a Flagship thing?

USS Oklahoma's Booklet of General Plans did a great job of identifying the decking type on each deck. It lists her superstructure decks as "Mastic".

Black and White photo's of other ships wearing MS-1 camo show that the decks were indeed not 5-D like the rest of the ship. But what color were they?
For example, here is a look at USS Astoria's superstructure decks in July '41. Astoria also took part in the Low Visibility Evaluations in Oct/Nov.

[url=https://postimg.cc/3d7Zth1j][img]https://i.postimg.cc/Kv3svvgW/Screen-Shot-2023-03-07-at-6-40-33-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/Czsp2Fgw][img]https://i.postimg.cc/7YpPf6tJ/Screen-Shot-2023-03-07-at-7-38-38-PM.png[/img][/url]

This is basically what "Mastic" is. I don't know if this came in any color other than shades of Gray.

[url=https://postimg.cc/Xrtkb7Pn][img]https://i.postimg.cc/SKxTcn7Y/Screen-Shot-2020-12-02-at-7-40-28-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/rpqkrt1s/Screen-Shot-2023-03-07-at-7-54-16-PM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/qvsrqGCW/Screen-Shot-2023-03-07-at-7-54-52-PM.png[/img][/url]

Linoleum was also widely used. This came in Gray and Brown.

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/4xZFNLY5/Screen-Shot-2020-11-29-at-9-54-32-AM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/F7sZb6cX][img]https://i.postimg.cc/vH5NyFZT/Screen-Shot-2020-11-29-at-9-55-59-AM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimages.org/][img]https://i.postimg.cc/Sxr1X68p/Screen-Shot-2020-11-29-at-9-47-10-AM.png[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/grwGdB9h][img]https://i.postimg.cc/jqc2HGZM/Screen-Shot-2022-03-23-at-9-37-15-PM.png[/img][/url]

Other considerations;

The wood covered decks normally see the most foot traffic and wears the paint off faster. The metal coated areas (like the top of the conning tower) saw far less traffic and had been painted with a "for the purpose" horizontal surface paint. Finally, this photo was taken after the attack when USS WEST VIRGINIA was sunk next to USS TENNESSEE and fire fighting efforts from TENNESSEE was quite active. The impact on the experimental deck paint would be a question mark.

The whole idea of the deck paint was to eliminate the very noticeable visibility of the wood decks as observed from the air. Everyone knew this was true, but the battleship commanders didn't want to "paint" their beautiful wood decks. One commander suggested keeping the decks wet, which produced a darker appearance. (How would you like to be one of the sailors during an attack standing on the deck spraying water?) So, an evaluation was created to prove that painting was a good idea. The IJN made the whole effort moot.

As for if the linoleum covered decks were painted over. I kind of doubt it, but don't know for sure. The square footage of these areas on the bridge is small. Paint likely wouldn't have adhered well in any case. The linoleum was stripped off after the war started as a fire hazard.

[quote]"Deck Blue" was NOT available for this evaluation. [/quote]

Noted. I realized this after I posted my response.

I agree that the finish of the same paint will appear differently when applied to different surface compositions. However, I strongly suspect that a paint covered metal will fade, chalk and weather more quickly in this climate than that of paint covered wood. Particularly a paint which doesn't wear as well to begin with. In which case, the metal covered areas would appear lighter, not darker. The areas I've referred are pretty dark in comparison, like a 5-D would appear.

A note, "Deck Blue" was NOT available for this evaluation. The supply of this paint had not arrived at PH. A substitute paint mixer was authorized basically using the same paint applied to vertical surfaces. As such the paint didn't wear as well as a deck paint and was probably a different shade than the paint already applied to the metal surfaces. And as David said, the same paint applied to porous wood doesn't appear the same as to metal. The same effect was noted when non-skid was painted.

I thought it might be you, Jeff. Thx!

So, as previously stated, my take on Tennessee on 12/7/41 is that only her wood planked decks have been painted deck blue, strictly as a result of the visibility experiments. I suppose we could debate the impact of the revised SHIPS 2, but the way I understand the timeline, the deck painting directives for experimentation came after it was released, in October, with formulas released in early November. I could well have that wrong.

More concrete, I believe, is the photographic evidence seen in overhead photo above of 12/10/41. If you look closely at Tennessee�s deck, it seems clear to me that metal plated deck areas are far darker than the wooden decks. The plating at the bow around the hawseholes, the anchor chaffing plates and capstans, the mooring bits, deck hatches, deck winches, top of the conning tower, the 5.25� gun mounts on the port side of the 01 deck, etc. are much darker. The stern main deck is less well defined, but I imagine that all the smoke/fire/heat of Dec. 7th may have had an impacted on all the painted areas.

My interpretation is seen below. Reactions?

Here ya go, Dan.
[url=https://postimg.cc/fty2wcHT][img]https://i.postimg.cc/mDN0yVCM/Screen-Shot-2018-03-10-at-8-46-12-PM.png[/img][/url]

I want to get back to my thought about Tennessee having only her wooden decking painted blue by 12/7.

I have a very sharp and clear, cropped version of this photo (or one very similar) that I cannot seem to post due to file extension problem. Not sure where I might have gotten it from, but I think it was within the last year. Does anybody recall posting that cropping?