The Ship Model Forum

Laurence Batchelor wrote:If you wanted a set of plans of a RN WW1 cruiser I may be able to find away around the obstacles.
It would likely not be a complete set with every sheet though, but it would be several Jaguar's cheaper.

Thanks Laurence, what do you have in mind? I might like to get something in the WWI era Town class. A deck plan and profile if nothing else.

Bob B.

ps: sorry if we highjacked the initial topic of the thread a bit. My mind tends to wander when I have ships on the brain

hi
theres apart called the ATLAS beware you will need to translate the site or like me you might down load a steem condenser or even a coocker

i put down to my age

great site hope they keep it up hats of to them

In the past I have found the staff at the NMM more helpful than the IWM.
Maybe because ships are only their thing, where as people in the IWM are 'jack of all trades'.

One area often overlooked is there are some useful naval photos in the National Archives at Kew, you just need to know where to look!

When I've been to the IWM photo dept, I hate arriving there at 9pm and then I sit inside (after my belongings are taken away!) waiting until the photo archivist 'collects me' at 10am an hour wasted to a researcher is criminal!

I also find at the IWM they are not very 'customer orientated', but in the number of British archives I've been in thats a common trait over here it would seem.

If you wanted a set of plans of a RN WW1 cruiser I may be able to find away around the obstacles.
It would likely not be a complete set with every sheet though, but it would be several Jaguar's cheaper.

Thanks for the information Laurence. Yes, it sounds quite hopeless for me to ever afford fees in that range! Perhaps it may seem a bit of profiteering is going on in this case. I would expect very few requests for plan sets to ever come their way. It must seem obvious to them that few if any would be that interested to purchase a full plan set at those prices.
As you say, these plans were all made at the British taxpayer's expense and just storage and printing can't add up to anywhere near what's being charged. Any organization has it's own internal culture and bureaucracy which we outsiders can only guess at. Their motives will remain a mystery.
Somehow it reminds me of my visits to the IWM photo dept. a year and a half ago. I spent five full days there. On my first visit I was amazed at how rude everyone was from the person answering the bell to the staff in the photo collection room. I was treated at first like a fool or a madman for wanting to research photos of the Royal Navy's warships. I mentioned to them that on my first visit to the collection in 1984, that it was located upstairs of the museum itself and I like the new location. Bad idea! The woman looked at me with obvious disgust and pretented to know nothing about such a thing. Oddly enough, by my third day of visits to the Photo Dept. they were treating my like and old lost friend and by the last day, they seemed really sad that I wouldn't be back again! Go figure! From ice cold treatment to a warm friendship at the end! Even the folks in the office out by the front door were pleasant as could be in the end.
To top it off, they seemed amazed that I had a good knowledge of the Royal Navy, it's history and ships. Like it was strange that I should know exactly what I was looking for with no help needed from them.
Bob B.

I believe they make huge profits from these activities.
Remember entry into the NMM is free, unlike the IWM so they miss out on that revenue stream.

Most of the photographs and plans they sell copies of were either donated to them freely, originally pruchased by the NMM for low amounts decades ago, or they salvaged the items from skips with the only outlay the hire of a van to travel to the part of the country to collect the material.

So basically their acquisition costs were/are low.
Storage costs, well the plans and photographs are housed on part of the former Royal Arsenal at Woolwich Arsenal.
As they are partly government sporsored I doubt they rent, just maintance and security costs.
I know the Royal Observatory at Greenwich (next to the NMM) is a world heritage site.
Not sure about land ownership there, I assume the NMM owns the site itself.

Now onto ship plans questions directly to answer your point.
Firstly they charge research/handling fees, for mere copying (which I suppose covers the staffs wages) this is �11.75 for every order.
Then per sheet they charge �16.92.
Then they add on insured post at cost, which comes in heavy sturdy tube (�8.50 or thereabouts is the UK postage costs).
International, hard to say but I would estimate no more than �15.
The total costs really depend on the number of sheets you want.
For example, if one was to order a complete set of 10 sheets for a WW2 KGV (10x16.92) + �11.75 + �8.50 = so best part of �190-�200.

Of course if there are more sheets the costs go up and up, e.g. WW2 Exeter there are 14sheets.

So basically it should be clear they are making huge sums form copying plans.
In no way does it cost nearly �17 per sheet to copy a piece of paper (albeit several feet long) in black-and-white on their large machine.
Add to this the research/handling fees when all they have to do a process a few forms, take a phonecall and go into the storage rooms, get out the plan go into the copying room and 5 mins later voila.

I don't wish to go into detail by copyright fees are also enormous making for alot of their material unlikely ever to be published in original form.
Same goes for the IWM.

From re-reading this post I seem anti-NMM.
I am not I just wish these plans were not so darn expensive meaning all that valuable information is accessible only to a few who can afford to fork out.
We, the British tax payers, paid for those plans to be drawn originally through the relevant naval departments.
If a proper conservation program was done post-ww2 they would really have gone into the National archives and not have had to be salvaged by the NMM when the British shipbuilding industry fell flat on its nose.
We have the NMM to thank though for their continued existence, and of course this means perhaps they have the right to charge what they like.

Laurence Batchelor wrote: People don't buy plans from them every 5mins (because they charge the earth) so they don't have to put them through this poltentially damaging exercise very often.

So Laurence, how high are the charges for a plan set? Say of a WWI era Light Cruiser like Chester or Sydney? I see plans from the NMM printed as illustrations to articles in old volumes of "Warship" and I wonder could I ever afford to purchase a set. Shipping to the US would also be a killer, not to mention a worse than 2-1 exchange rate to buy Pounds with Dollar
Am I destined to never own plans of the Grand Fleet's most interesting ships? I think probably so

Bob B.

Laurence Batchelor wrote:I think its unlikely the National Maritime Museum at Woolwich would ever be so thoughtful.

They are sitting on the largest ship plans collection in the world, much of which had to be acquired from their hard work and salvage efforts.

If they digitised their plans, surely they would loose this most valuable (to them) revenue stream?

Laurence, according to their 2006 Review, the NMM's annual expenditure of �24.5 million was mostly paid for by a Government grant of �15.2 million, with the balance being raised through sponsorship and commercial activity. So the NMM does not exist in a purely commercial environment.

As others have intimated, the NMM must have more important work to do than provide a retail service. Do they make any profit from copying plans, or does that revenue merely cover their costs? If the latter is true, then both the NMM and the public would benefit from a change in mindset.

Hi !

1- Free download = many customers (+ of 2000 persons a day who download 25 plans) = good fame for the CAA � all over the world �
As Bruno said : "CAA decided to offer free download of already digitized files as a "time and staff saving measure" so it�s more time to help visiting historians, writers and researchers � and also to digitize news plans.�

The CAA�s archives are seen, and stay not for nothing on store racks (warmed store racks ! ! !)
Why preserved documents if nobody see them ? Is the cost so different ?

The CAA do not digitize all the collections. Only a small part = 80 % of the plans commanded before the free download.
Plans of 500 ships < 0,01 % of CAA collections = only 100 linear meters of archives ! ! !
The CAA can�t and don�t want to digitize everything : too expensive
But digitize what interests most large number of persons : it seems possible
With the free download two persons less answer the commands... Surprise ? two persons take charge of digitalizations.

2- Paying download (5 euros / file) = few customers (perhaps 20 a day ? or less ? who download 5 plans (25 x 360 day = 9 000 euros/year ) and full of "cheaters" who will exchange plans via Web
The work stay the same.
Additional costs (certainly > 9000 euros) to secure the site and allow the on-line payment.
No recognition for the CAA

3- Return in the past = no files on Web = few customers (10 by days for 5 plans) + many mails of recordings reception of the demand, the sending of the list of plans, reception of the command, the sending of the estimate, the reception of the payment, the realization of copies on a very expensive machine , preparation of the mail, sending of the command.
And at the end, a prize of copy 5� per metre (decided by the legislation)


With the free download on Web, the CAA spend less money ! ! ! and YOU are many to see CAA's archives.
Bruno said

they plan to open next year another free download section devoted to armour (tanks, vehicles of the French Army)�

I think not next year � but next week �

Laurence Batchelor wrote:I think its unlikely the National Maritime Museum at Woolwich would ever be so thoughtful.

They are sitting on the largest ship plans collection in the world, much of which had to be acquired from their hard work and salvage efforts.

If they digitised their plans, surely they would loose this most valuable (to them) revenue stream?

Did this CAA before sell copied plans to order?
If so how do they now generate money?

More relevant for the powers that be who decide on such matters in France is public service and to a lesser extent cost of operation, although a lot of it is either fixed cost (mostly civil servant staff, who would be on the payroll no matter what and buildings that the state needs to retain and maintain anyhow).

The French view on such an issue is not likely to be influenced by any level of customer-generated revenue in the first place. It is not even obvious that any such revenue would be credited to them and put against their cost of operation, as the CAA is not an autonomous entity. They would probably never think of themselves as a profit center.

I would imagine that what matters to them is on the one hand the service they provide, and on the other hand the cost of running the CAA. There does not need to be any relation between the two. We seem to be lucky that in the case of the CAA, the people in charge are truly willing to provide teh public with the best possible service, and that they have been able to secure appropriate funding enabling them to do so.

They have done it this way for decades, and have a very expensive specialised machine for this and well trained staff.

Like French naval plans some of the ones they hold are ink on delicate papers and some are very very long.

People don't buy plans from them every 5mins (because they charge the earth) so they don't have to put them through this poltentially damaging exercise very often.

Does the CAA offer large colour copies (at rocket high prices) like the NMM also?

I'm not sure, but they'll have to order from a local private shop... at geostationary orbit price.

they put it through a large pure copying machine

I can't understand this : if each time they put the original (?) plans in the copying machine, this implies handling of the old sheets... what about further damaging those precious documents (or, at last, taking the risk to damage them). This reminds me the Middle-Age manuscripts at the Biblioth�que Nationale : some were digitized simply because they couldn't be handled any more without serious risk.

bgire wrote:...Unfortunately this has too many pixels and will not open on our ordinary computers. It should be cut in two parts for the next Xmas update.

You�re talking about the biggest of them all (file named LAFAYET1943PL443715)???
So, that�s the reason why I couldn�t open it...

.

This is where the NMM differs when you order they don't scan, they put it through a large pure copying machine.
So each time they are not getting a digitized version to work with.

Does the CAA offer large colour copies (at rocket high prices) like the NMM also?

Did this CAA before sell copied plans to order?

CAA still sells paper plans on order... at NMM-style prices.
But to reproduce a plan on paper they'd first to scan the original and keep the digitized file... so why not selling the files? They did it until 2006 (one euro per plan) until they probably realized the cost of recovering one euro per plan was superior to the cost of free download.

But... not already digitized plans can be scanned at higher prices than before!

Also the trouble is first getting enough money to buy the large scanner... CAA's can scan up to 93cm wide to unlimited length. Their record so far was a 1:1 scale drawing of a German (?) torpedo with a paper length of 12m (39feet). They posted two weeks ago on their site a plan for CV LaFayette, ex USS Langley, the original of which was 4.5m (15feet). Unfortunately this has too many pixels and will not open on our ordinary computers. It should be cut in two parts for the next Xmas update.

I think its unlikely the National Maritime Museum at Woolwich would ever be so thoughtful.

They are sitting on the largest ship plans collection in the world, much of which had to be acquired from their hard work and salvage efforts.

If they digitised their plans, surely they would loose this most valuable (to them) revenue stream?

Did this CAA before sell copied plans to order?
If so how do they now generate money?

I tend to keep optimistic in that field.
I'm convinced we're at the eve of a worldwide major rethinking of "how to keep and open archives"

In every country (France is but no exception) we're facing gigantic and faster growing archives, rising costs of handling and storing, concern about keeping these Time-resistant... and ever growing demand from people worldwide.

1- Archives get gigantic : over the last 40 or 50 years the amount of published materiel (text, pictures, videos) has sky-rocketed, thanks to our computerized World.
2- Archives centres simply can't absorb and hold any more loads of stuff which come everyday
3- Time is terrible : paper's decaying, colours fade out, negatives and films slowly degrade and videos get fuzzy and decayed. Even microfilms are decaying.
4- Thanks to the Internet, today worldwide researchers, writers... even model makers feel natural to ask an archives centre for data. Twenty years ago you've to get an appointment, go to the archives to search : this contributed to maintain a low charge on their staff. This thread on CAA has been read by 300+ people over the first 4 hours (I posted it on other forums too) : should one out of ten of you just ask the CAA, this would probably multiply by 10 their daily workload.

All this can get a -not so temporary- solution by digitizing and storing in computers. In the next decades maybe their support will change (CD, DVD, flash memories, quantic memories, what else?)... but they'll still be on a numeric, digitized form which is far more Time-resistant than papers, pictures or films. A digitized document can be stored and handled at far lower costs than its original. So let's go numeric !

Public and private organizations worldwide have begun this mammoth task : National Archives in UK, France and many other countries, even Google with its controversial enterprise.

For example, here in France we've the public founded Biblioth�que Nationale (National archives) with its huge website where you can download rare Middle-Age manuscripts as well as Diderot's work. Also the INA (National audiovisual institute) with hundredth of hours of downloadable TV programmes from the 60's to present, even the Geoportail (an equivalent of Google Earth limited to France and French territories).

Those tasks are enormous, lengthy and costly... but they'll have simply to be done. The alternative will soon be : put (=waste) more money in the traditional way, then get blocked in a few years and take the decision to stop everything and destroy the archives... a solution any Nation simply can't endorse.

We, the users, have a mission : to put and keep pressure by asking for documents and researches. Its clear in my mind the more we'll ask the CAA, the more they'll get money from "above" to extend their digitized world. I don't know NMM as well as my British friends, but I'm convinced they'll take the new train, maybe next year, maybe later... they've no choice.

And Time doesn't count so much: I'm remembering in the years 2002-2003 with all those posts on ours forums about "naval plastic model building is decaying" or "no more new ships kits". Just make a count of injection and resin kits which were issued or are being planned since 2004... my VISA is just getting frightened, so my tiny home.

Just my two (euro) cents
Bruno

Laurence Batchelor wrote:The genius over there (who ever it maybe) must be commended who thought of the idea to digitise their warship ship plans and make them freely available (albeit in small scans) online .

If only the National Maritime Musuem was a public (like this) and not a private institution!

Indeed, one can be happy and proud of what has been done with our tax Euros. This is a happy side of our "Big Government" system.

Now, if only the various French museums and archives holding photographic memories of warships would relax their extortionate reproduction fees, that would make publishing books on French naval subjects much more manageable from an economic standpoint and undoubtedly encourage a new generation of writers to explore France's rich naval history.

I have seen at the ECPA in Paris a series of photographs of Strasbourg in drydock in 1941 that I have never seen in print anywhere. ECPA has many photographs captured post-war in Germany, including many of German warships made by Propaganda Staffel photographs in Brest and elsewhere. I saw a series of shots of Scharnhorst during a training sortie out of Brest, with several close-up shots.

The Musee de la Marine has an extensive collection of rare photographs of many ships, including many of my beloved Normandie. Inall cases, the copyright fees are very high for private use and out of reach for publishing, given the limited circulation of such books.

Laurence Batchelor wrote:The genius over there (who ever it maybe) must be commended who thought of the idea to digitise their warship ship plans and make them freely available (albeit in small scans) online .

If only the National Maritime Musuem was a public (like this) and not a private institution!

You said it. Twice in fact!

I wasn't aware that the NMM was private; according to their Corporate Review 2006 they are funded by an annual Government grant. But it would explain why they place onerous restrictions on access to their plans, particularly for commercial interests.

Thanks. I've been accessing the SHD for a while now, but it's nice to see the faces and organisation behind the scenes.

Rick

Great Post !!!
Many thanks for sharing such precious information !

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