Introducing the CAA : French naval archives centre

[MELUSINE]

Hi !

1- Free download = many customers (+ of 2000 persons a day who download 25 plans) = good fame for the CAA � all over the world �
As Bruno said : "CAA decided to offer free download of already digitized files as a "time and staff saving measure" so it�s more time to help visiting historians, writers and researchers � and also to digitize news plans.�

The CAA�s archives are seen, and stay not for nothing on store racks (warmed store racks ! ! !)
Why preserved documents if nobody see them ? Is the cost so different ?

The CAA do not digitize all the collections. Only a small part = 80 % of the plans commanded before the free download.
Plans of 500 ships < 0,01 % of CAA collections = only 100 linear meters of archives ! ! !
The CAA can�t and don�t want to digitize everything : too expensive
But digitize what interests most large number of persons : it seems possible
With the free download two persons less answer the commands... Surprise ? two persons take charge of digitalizations.

2- Paying download (5 euros / file) = few customers (perhaps 20 a day ? or less ? who download 5 plans (25 x 360 day = 9 000 euros/year ) and full of "cheaters" who will exchange plans via Web
The work stay the same.
Additional costs (certainly > 9000 euros) to secure the site and allow the on-line payment.
No recognition for the CAA

3- Return in the past = no files on Web = few customers (10 by days for 5 plans) + many mails of recordings reception of the demand, the sending of the list of plans, reception of the command, the sending of the estimate, the reception of the payment, the realization of copies on a very expensive machine , preparation of the mail, sending of the command.
And at the end, a prize of copy 5� per metre (decided by the legislation)


With the free download on Web, the CAA spend less money ! ! ! and YOU are many to see CAA's archives.
Bruno said

they plan to open next year another free download section devoted to armour (tanks, vehicles of the French Army)�

I think not next year � but next week �

[linux]

I think its unlikely the National Maritime Museum at Woolwich would ever be so thoughtful.

They are sitting on the largest ship plans collection in the world, much of which had to be acquired from their hard work and salvage efforts.

If they digitised their plans, surely they would loose this most valuable (to them) revenue stream?

Laurence, according to their 2006 Review, the NMM's annual expenditure of �24.5 million was mostly paid for by a Government grant of �15.2 million, with the balance being raised through sponsorship and commercial activity. So the NMM does not exist in a purely commercial environment.

As others have intimated, the NMM must have more important work to do than provide a retail service. Do they make any profit from copying plans, or does that revenue merely cover their costs? If the latter is true, then both the NMM and the public would benefit from a change in mindset.

[bengtsson]

People don't buy plans from them every 5mins (because they charge the earth) so they don't have to put them through this poltentially damaging exercise very often.

So Laurence, how high are the charges for a plan set? Say of a WWI era Light Cruiser like Chester or Sydney? I see plans from the NMM printed as illustrations to articles in old volumes of "Warship" and I wonder could I ever afford to purchase a set. Shipping to the US would also be a killer, not to mention a worse than 2-1 exchange rate to buy Pounds with Dollar
Am I destined to never own plans of the Grand Fleet's most interesting ships? I think probably so

Bob B.

[Laurence Batchelor]

I believe they make huge profits from these activities.
Remember entry into the NMM is free, unlike the IWM so they miss out on that revenue stream.

Most of the photographs and plans they sell copies of were either donated to them freely, originally pruchased by the NMM for low amounts decades ago, or they salvaged the items from skips with the only outlay the hire of a van to travel to the part of the country to collect the material.

So basically their acquisition costs were/are low.
Storage costs, well the plans and photographs are housed on part of the former Royal Arsenal at Woolwich Arsenal.
As they are partly government sporsored I doubt they rent, just maintance and security costs.
I know the Royal Observatory at Greenwich (next to the NMM) is a world heritage site.
Not sure about land ownership there, I assume the NMM owns the site itself.

Now onto ship plans questions directly to answer your point.
Firstly they charge research/handling fees, for mere copying (which I suppose covers the staffs wages) this is �11.75 for every order.
Then per sheet they charge �16.92.
Then they add on insured post at cost, which comes in heavy sturdy tube (�8.50 or thereabouts is the UK postage costs).
International, hard to say but I would estimate no more than �15.
The total costs really depend on the number of sheets you want.
For example, if one was to order a complete set of 10 sheets for a WW2 KGV (10x16.92) + �11.75 + �8.50 = so best part of �190-�200.

Of course if there are more sheets the costs go up and up, e.g. WW2 Exeter there are 14sheets.

So basically it should be clear they are making huge sums form copying plans.
In no way does it cost nearly �17 per sheet to copy a piece of paper (albeit several feet long) in black-and-white on their large machine.
Add to this the research/handling fees when all they have to do a process a few forms, take a phonecall and go into the storage rooms, get out the plan go into the copying room and 5 mins later voila.

I don't wish to go into detail by copyright fees are also enormous making for alot of their material unlikely ever to be published in original form.
Same goes for the IWM.

From re-reading this post I seem anti-NMM.
I am not I just wish these plans were not so darn expensive meaning all that valuable information is accessible only to a few who can afford to fork out.
We, the British tax payers, paid for those plans to be drawn originally through the relevant naval departments.
If a proper conservation program was done post-ww2 they would really have gone into the National archives and not have had to be salvaged by the NMM when the British shipbuilding industry fell flat on its nose.
We have the NMM to thank though for their continued existence, and of course this means perhaps they have the right to charge what they like.

[bengtsson]

Thanks for the information Laurence. Yes, it sounds quite hopeless for me to ever afford fees in that range! Perhaps it may seem a bit of profiteering is going on in this case. I would expect very few requests for plan sets to ever come their way. It must seem obvious to them that few if any would be that interested to purchase a full plan set at those prices.
As you say, these plans were all made at the British taxpayer's expense and just storage and printing can't add up to anywhere near what's being charged. Any organization has it's own internal culture and bureaucracy which we outsiders can only guess at. Their motives will remain a mystery.
Somehow it reminds me of my visits to the IWM photo dept. a year and a half ago. I spent five full days there. On my first visit I was amazed at how rude everyone was from the person answering the bell to the staff in the photo collection room. I was treated at first like a fool or a madman for wanting to research photos of the Royal Navy's warships. I mentioned to them that on my first visit to the collection in 1984, that it was located upstairs of the museum itself and I like the new location. Bad idea! The woman looked at me with obvious disgust and pretented to know nothing about such a thing. Oddly enough, by my third day of visits to the Photo Dept. they were treating my like and old lost friend and by the last day, they seemed really sad that I wouldn't be back again! Go figure! From ice cold treatment to a warm friendship at the end! Even the folks in the office out by the front door were pleasant as could be in the end.
To top it off, they seemed amazed that I had a good knowledge of the Royal Navy, it's history and ships. Like it was strange that I should know exactly what I was looking for with no help needed from them.
Bob B.

[Laurence Batchelor]

In the past I have found the staff at the NMM more helpful than the IWM.
Maybe because ships are only their thing, where as people in the IWM are 'jack of all trades'.

One area often overlooked is there are some useful naval photos in the National Archives at Kew, you just need to know where to look!

When I've been to the IWM photo dept, I hate arriving there at 9pm and then I sit inside (after my belongings are taken away!) waiting until the photo archivist 'collects me' at 10am an hour wasted to a researcher is criminal!

I also find at the IWM they are not very 'customer orientated', but in the number of British archives I've been in thats a common trait over here it would seem.

If you wanted a set of plans of a RN WW1 cruiser I may be able to find away around the obstacles.
It would likely not be a complete set with every sheet though, but it would be several Jaguar's cheaper.

[Bill1957]

hi
theres apart called the ATLAS beware you will need to translate the site or like me you might down load a steem condenser or even a coocker

i put down to my age

great site hope they keep it up hats of to them

[bengtsson]

If you wanted a set of plans of a RN WW1 cruiser I may be able to find away around the obstacles.
It would likely not be a complete set with every sheet though, but it would be several Jaguar's cheaper.

Thanks Laurence, what do you have in mind? I might like to get something in the WWI era Town class. A deck plan and profile if nothing else.

Bob B.

ps: sorry if we highjacked the initial topic of the thread a bit. My mind tends to wander when I have ships on the brain