The Ship Model Forum

Photo of tractor of CV-8 taken by the research vessel R/V Petrel

Steve, thanks - that does help massively.

I will paint the tugs is OD and Grey so there's some variation. And the bow wave thing is also a great help - it does look more like weathered paint (in fact in one of the photos it looks like the plimsoll line has weathered as well). I now know how I will treat this area when it comes to painting.

As an aircraft modeller, I'm staggered at the amount of reference material available for that side of the hobby compared to ship building (well at least this ship) - I will never again moan about rubbish black & white German WW2 photos as I now know they are perfect as reference in comparison.

thanks again
neil

The color of deck tractors, moto-tugs, deck jeeps, cranes, and other vehicles is difficult to answer from photos. Comparatively few photos of the Yorktown-class (and other wartime classes) are known to be in original color. Fewer still show any deck tractors at all. There may be documentary evidence and Tracy White, who frequents this site, may be able to answer that question. Absence that, we can turn to photos of other contemporary ships for an answer, such as Essex-class and Independence-class ships.

Photos taken during the war of Essex-class ships indicate that deck tractors and jeeps on board probably varied in color, either gray or olive drab. This may be due to who procured the vehicle under which contract. Different services (Army, Navy) had different equipment procurement responsibility at that time. In other words, one service would be responsible for procuring all of one type of equipment for all services. For example, the Army would be responsible to procure M1 helmets for all services. If the equipment was sourced under an Army contract, it would come painted olive drab and normally be put into service in that color. Likewise, if the equipment was sourced under a Navy procurement contract, it was likely to arrive gray and serve in gray. This means that it is possible to have a gray Navy-procured tractor or moto-tug next to an olive drab Army-procured jeep on the same deck at the same time.

In the first photo shown below, notice that the jeeps appear distinctly darker than the tugs. The jeeps may be olive drab and the tugs may be gray but it is very difficult to know with any certainty from the photo.

Complicating the issue, crews could repaint the equipment to any color if locally directed to do so.

Unfortunately, surviving color photos aren't very helpful; typically, no deck equipment is visible in the photos. And for those few photos where deck equipment is visible, the photo is in black and white, so no joy (see examples below).

Hopefully, Tracy can provide some help in answering your question. Ultimately, it's your model. Paint the equipment to your liking.
[attachment=10]CV-17 1945.jpg[/attachment]
[attachment=9]CV-17 Bunker Hill 1945_4 318341084_5973722815980745_8973806155788792694_n.jpg[/attachment]
Regarding [i]Hornet[/i]'s colors, the Trumpeter painting guides are a bit off. The sides of the real ship itself were painted in 3 colors: a dark blue, a medium gray (called "ocean gray") and a light gray (called "haze gray") with blue and ocean gray on the hull and ocean gray and haze gray on the island. Trumpeter drawings show only 2 colors, not 3, and the pattern shown in Trumpeter drawings does not match photos of the actual ship. Photos below show the three colors well and the actual pattern.

And yes, evidence suggests that what appears to be a white bow wave is merely worn away paint exposing the primer below (see bottom 2 photos). The actual, official painting scheme used by [i]Hornet[/i], called a "measure", did not include a false bow wave.

Hope this helps!

I've really enjoyed this build, the 1/200 kit is amazing out of the box and it's enabled me to learn a lot, both with regards to the build and to the actual ship. I've still got so many unanswered questions three of which I was hoping someone would know the answer for certain, both relating to equipment colour, neither being specific to Hornet I guess.

The first one concerns the colour of the tractors on the ship - I assumed yellow but the black and white photos I've found don't help as they show different shades in different pictures. Or would these be camouflaged like the aircraft ?

I'm also adding some interior stuff to the large hanger deck and thought the would be firefighting equipment scattered throughout the ship but I can't find any info on what was used and colour of said equipment (I know WW2 aircraft fire extinguishers were bronze not red, is this the same for USN ships). Adding a few small items of colour on a largely white and grey background would be nice.

Finally, the pictures I've seen of the Hornet prior to sinking shows what appears to be a very weathered painted white wave at the front of the hull. However I've also read that this was just heavy weathering of the hull blue paint so I'm uncertain what this is and therefore how to approach replicating it (I would take a different approach if it's just weathered hull blue paint).

Any expert views on this three would be really helpful

thanks
neil

thanks Mark

[quote="npb748r"]Hi all, I don't normally build ships, I'm mainly a 1/32 aircraft modeller so massively out of my comfort zone and have next to no basic knowledge when it comes to building and painting ship kits. However I've had one of those years that modellers go through occasionally with zero builds in 2024. In need of getting some inspiration I wanted to do something different and had been looking at the 1/200 scale aircraft carriers for some years. A few glasses of red wine and a certain auction site later and the biggest model box arrived in the post. I was drawn to the Hornet due to the colour scheme but uncertain of what paints to get. Given the size I want to use rattle cans and plan on an OOB build, the kit as it comes is more than enough for my modelling skills and interest. I'm not overly fussed on accuracy as long as it looks near enough, can anyone please recommend any Tamiya rattle can colours that match or closely match those of this monster aircraft carrier ?? I was hoping to find some reference books for the Hornet but they seem few and far between with mostly b&w photos - I was hoping to find some plans but not had any luck, again any recommendations would be gratefully received. Have an enjoyable and safe Christmas.

thanks
neil[/quote]

Tamiya might have some rattle can paint that is pretty close to what you would need for the Hornet. Their Hull red for the .............hull, black for the boot top, Hornet had two shades of gray, there is a thread here that lists the color. Another source is Tru Color Paints out of Phoenix. I use their stuff and it is color matched and they do offer their colors in aerosols. Tru Color Paint: 623-551-2548 Their website has a color chart and what colors are available in spray cans. https://trucolorpaint.com/color-charts/#1680822195730-86e7f886-4673 check it out and good luck. Jeff Herne, who is on this forum has Scale Color Paints. He may have what you need as well.

Hi all, I don't normally build ships, I'm mainly a 1/32 aircraft modeller so massively out of my comfort zone and have next to no basic knowledge when it comes to building and painting ship kits. However I've had one of those years that modellers go through occasionally with zero builds in 2024. In need of getting some inspiration I wanted to do something different and had been looking at the 1/200 scale aircraft carriers for some years. A few glasses of red wine and a certain auction site later and the biggest model box arrived in the post. I was drawn to the Hornet due to the colour scheme but uncertain of what paints to get. Given the size I want to use rattle cans and plan on an OOB build, the kit as it comes is more than enough for my modelling skills and interest. I'm not overly fussed on accuracy as long as it looks near enough, can anyone please recommend any Tamiya rattle can colours that match or closely match those of this monster aircraft carrier ?? I was hoping to find some reference books for the Hornet but they seem few and far between with mostly b&w photos - I was hoping to find some plans but not had any luck, again any recommendations would be gratefully received. Have an enjoyable and safe Christmas.

thanks
neil

Thanks! :thumbs_up_1:

Digging around, I found this in my Hornet archives ( Translated in english ):

"The gun was approved as a naval armament in November 1940, and the first series appeared on US ships before 7 December 1941. From June 1942, Oerlikon 20mm guns were used as anti-aircraft weapons on the three Yorktown aircraft carriers.The Oerlikon L70 Mk 4 20mm guns had an overall length of 2210m and weighed about 20.87kg without the breech mechanism.

Their barrels were 1452 mm long (70 calibres) and had nine 1/36 thread grooves over a length of 1246 mm, allowing the projectile to rotate at 1154 revolutions per second as it exited the barrel. The volume of the barrel's cartridge chamber was 34.86 cm3 and, with the breech mechanism, they weighed 68 kg. The 20mm guns fired 182mm long combination cartridges weighing 0.241kg. The 0.09kg brass cartridge cases were filled with 0.028kg of nitrocellulose propellant, creating a pressure of 3090kg/cm2 in the cartridge chamber. Depending on the condition of the weapon, the projectiles could reach an exit velocity of 835 to 844 m/s. This gave a range of 4400 metres. This gave a range of 4,400 m at 45o elevation and a ceiling of 3,050 m for anti-aircraft fire. The theoretical rate of fire of the 20mm guns was 450 rounds per minute in cyclic fire, and the practical rate of fire was 250 to 320 rounds per minute. The guns had a service life of 9,000 rounds.

The 20mm L/70Mk 4 Oerlikon anti-aircraft guns were mounted on Yorktown aircraft carriers in Mk 4 and Mk 10 single gun emplacements and Mk 24 double gun emplacements. The single gun emplacement weighed 769 kg and the double gun weighed 635 kg. The elevation angle of the guns could be changed manually using a mechanical lift from -5o to +87o (Mk 4 mounts) or from -15o to +90o (Mk 10 and Mk 24 mounts). In the horizontal plane, the fields of fire could be rotated 360o, and the rotation and alignment of the fields of fire in the direction of the target on single- and double-turret positions was effected by the force of the sighting officer's arms."

I extracted this from here:

OW23 Lotniskowce typu Yorktown vol 1.

[url=https://postimg.cc/DSP2r0wV][img]https://i.postimg.cc/YCJhwmcS/Capture-d-e-cran-2024-02-22-a-22-35-53.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/pmHW5zxY][img]https://i.postimg.cc/DwW8DPMD/Capture-d-e-cran-2024-02-22-a-22-34-59.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/YjTqkTsP][img]https://i.postimg.cc/L68qkpBm/Capture-d-e-cran-2024-02-22-a-22-35-17.jpg[/img][/url]

[url=https://postimg.cc/kB8M5frg][img]https://i.postimg.cc/Ghg4q5qG/Capture-d-e-cran-2024-02-22-a-22-35-29.jpg[/img][/url]

What type of 20mm Oerlikon gun was used on the Hornet, MK ?

[url=https://postimg.cc/Lh7PgCJd][img]https://i.postimg.cc/X7Nkht3v/46374443444-a74495cd75-o-1.jpg[/img][/url]

[img]https://blogfront-geenstijl.imgix.net/e37fcfd0eb_52467439_2200576023311200_7186257980231254016_o.jpg?w=555&auto=format&fit=max&q=70[/img]

The starboard 5" guns were 1/3 forward and 5/7 aft. I would assume the port ones were 2/4 and 6/8, but I only had personal contact with starboard side crewmen.

How were the 5"/38 mounts numbered? 1 - 8? I don't recall, frankly. If so, that might explain the numbering. Or if the 1.1" quads were 1 - 4, that might also explain.

In the site below, hopefully you will see an option for Doolittle's Raid on Tokyo near the top. If not, use the Advanced Search option in the top R corner

https://digital.tcl.sc.edu/digital/search/searchterm/doolittle%20raid/field/all/mode/all/conn/and/order/nosort/ad/asc/cosuppress/0

At 6:21-29 you will see Doolittle and Mitscher walking past starboard side 20MM cannons numbered 12-15. Every time I have seen that footage before it ends as they pass 15. Not on this film. Their walk continues to go past the director for and then stop just short of 1.1 mount #1.

For those of us anal enough to consider such a detail, this poses the question why the 5 guns in that location---forward starboard side--were numbered 11-15 vs something like 1-5. Was the idea station 1 guns 1-5? Plus how were the other 15 or so numbered?

My guesses are for 1/700 this detail would be microscopic, for 1/350 barely visible but doable, for 1/200 which I have never done possibly worth doing. Probably doable only for someone capable of making their own decals.

Not planning to build a Hornet model anytime soon, nor making any trips to NARA, I will leave this issue to our resident wizards/experts if they care to address it for any of you who are building such a model. A related issue would be how did CV 5-6 handle this situation?

Meanwhile hats off to all of you who have the skill and time to build this ship in any scale.

Thanks very much for that answer, I appreciate the input.

[quote="BB61"]I've been led to believe that the three main colors for the Hornet (vertical surfaces) are sea blue, ocean gray and haze grey. Is this correct?[/quote]Yes and no. As commissioned, when she was in original MS-12, the answer is yes. Yorktown was the same. But by the time that she repainted into MS-12 (mod) (the "splotches" pattern), the answer is probably no. Both the Atlantic and Pacific Fleets decided that sea blue was too light, and faded much too quickly, so navy blue was being substituted for it. Yorktown transferred to the Pacific before she could repaint, and so carried sea blue until her loss. But check the contrast between the darker and lighter hull colors on Yorktown and compare that to the contrast between the darker and lighter hull colors of Hornet's splotch pattern. It appears that navy blue was substituted for sea blue. The contrast difference is too consistent among the various photos, and over time, to be simply an artifact of the photo copying process. It also appears to have been navy blue as the lower color on Lexington's MS-12 paint job, because when they repainted her into MS-11 (which definitely [i]had[/i] substituted navy blue for sea blue), the yard photos show the existing lower hull color simply being extended upward. And it is unlikely that they repainted the lower hull color in its entirety before doing [i]any[/i] painting above the demarcation line.

I've been led to believe that the three main colors for the Hornet (vertical surfaces) are sea blue, ocean gray and haze grey. Is this correct?

Thanks a bunch.

[quote="MartinJQuinn"]Yes, she carried Dauntless dive bombers until her end.

Deck gray[/quote]

Fantastic! Thanks very much, I [i]really[/i] appreciate it.

Yes, she carried Dauntless dive bombers until her end.

Deck gray

Another lame question; would the Hornet have had Dauntless dive bombers onboard between the battle of Midway and Santa Cruz campaigns? I'll be having scant few aircraft displayed on my ship, but would like to have a couple of SBDs, if she was so configured.

Also, would the hangar deck floors be painted, and if so, what color?

Thanks a bunch.

[quote="Rick E Davis"]The antennas on Mk 37 directors (in this case the Mk 4 radar antenna), did go up and down in elevation and could tilt. But they didn't rotate independently.[/quote]

Excellent. Thanks very much, I appreciate it.

The antennas on Mk 37 directors (in this case the Mk 4 radar antenna), did go up and down in elevation and could tilt. But they didn't rotate independently.