by DariusP » Tue Apr 30, 2013 1:50 pm
Post no.1
by Bruno Gire � Jan 08, 2013
Hello,
I'm the guy who sent the answer on Steelnavy.
My thoughts are based on two sources:
- No photographic evidence of planked deck on fore deck
- A very detailed monography on Hoche writen 25 years ago by renowned French pre-dread specialist Luc Feron, who clearly state the Hoche model in Mus�e de la Marine, from which all models, including Combrig's are derivative is but wrong in many details, including the planked main deck.
Explanation for this is rather simple:
Hoche is somewhat unique in French building in that she was the first of a new type (compact, modern battleship).She has been built over a period of nearly 11 years because she was considered as a prototype by engineers... and a political target in the continuous fighting between High Navy Command (who wanted to counterbalance the battleship race between UK and Germany), and the Jeune Ecole (Young School) of officers who wanted to give away with large ships in favour of numerous small boats armed with torpedoes. These later lost their fight but started another race which led Britain to design ships to counter these small boats, thus giving birth to the modern destroyer... but that's another story.
In short: Hoche as been built with continuous changes for more equipment, modification, almost every month... She entered service as an overloaded hull splintered with unproven prototype equipment, a true floating laboratory with (IMHO) absolutely no fighting value, except to be a show-boat for the Navy.
No plans of the completed Hoche do exist in the Naval archives. The only set is a 1885 set of plans "as designed" which is held in microfilm at Vincennes. Pictures of Hoche easily show many differences from the plans.
The Mus�e de la Marine model was a "demonstration" model of the ship, as she would have been and was aimed at the High Command to "boost" support for her build. Hence the good looking planked deck, the festooned band above after turret, etc... which Combrig carefully reproduced.
The foredeck encountered many trouble and wasn't planked. At maximum speed (12 knots), the bow wave raised so high the whole deck was permanently submerged (thanks also to the ram bow which enhanced this and was cancelled on following ship Brennus), as Jim's picture show. During trials, the weight of this water caused some crash bending of the deck, damaging the sustaining "stanchions" below. Also the fore turret had serious watertight issues. OT but just for fun: to train the main turrets, one had first to raise it a few centimetres with electric motors as to clear the watertight brass joint, then train the turret using chain capstans and finally lower the turret in place, ready for firing... just try to imagine the time lapse between shots!
When entering service, Hoche had her top speed restrained to avoid damage... and was forbidden to fire transverse broadside with all barrels at a time... These guns trained on the same side would have made the ship... to capsize!
The Hoche follower, battleship Brennus was another miss (the first time she trained her guns on the same side, she took a 28� list!), but following unit became more standardized with less political pressure and better fighting units.
Post no.1
by Bruno Gire � Jan 08, 2013
Hello,
I'm the guy who sent the answer on Steelnavy.
My thoughts are based on two sources:
- No photographic evidence of planked deck on fore deck
- A very detailed monography on Hoche writen 25 years ago by renowned French pre-dread specialist Luc Feron, who clearly state the Hoche model in Mus�e de la Marine, from which all models, including Combrig's are derivative is but wrong in many details, including the planked main deck.
Explanation for this is rather simple:
Hoche is somewhat unique in French building in that she was the first of a new type (compact, modern battleship).She has been built over a period of nearly 11 years because she was considered as a prototype by engineers... and a political target in the continuous fighting between High Navy Command (who wanted to counterbalance the battleship race between UK and Germany), and the Jeune Ecole (Young School) of officers who wanted to give away with large ships in favour of numerous small boats armed with torpedoes. These later lost their fight but started another race which led Britain to design ships to counter these small boats, thus giving birth to the modern destroyer... but that's another story.
In short: Hoche as been built with continuous changes for more equipment, modification, almost every month... She entered service as an overloaded hull splintered with unproven prototype equipment, a true floating laboratory with (IMHO) absolutely no fighting value, except to be a show-boat for the Navy.
No plans of the completed Hoche do exist in the Naval archives. The only set is a 1885 set of plans "as designed" which is held in microfilm at Vincennes. Pictures of Hoche easily show many differences from the plans.
The Mus�e de la Marine model was a "demonstration" model of the ship, as she would have been and was aimed at the High Command to "boost" support for her build. Hence the good looking planked deck, the festooned band above after turret, etc... which Combrig carefully reproduced.
The foredeck encountered many trouble and wasn't planked. At maximum speed (12 knots), the bow wave raised so high the whole deck was permanently submerged (thanks also to the ram bow which enhanced this and was cancelled on following ship Brennus), as Jim's picture show. During trials, the weight of this water caused some crash bending of the deck, damaging the sustaining "stanchions" below. Also the fore turret had serious watertight issues. OT but just for fun: to train the main turrets, one had first to raise it a few centimetres with electric motors as to clear the watertight brass joint, then train the turret using chain capstans and finally lower the turret in place, ready for firing... just try to imagine the time lapse between shots!
When entering service, Hoche had her top speed restrained to avoid damage... and was forbidden to fire transverse broadside with all barrels at a time... These guns trained on the same side would have made the ship... to capsize!
The Hoche follower, battleship Brennus was another miss (the first time she trained her guns on the same side, she took a 28� list!), but following unit became more standardized with less political pressure and better fighting units.