The Ship Model Forum

[quote="GMG4RWF"]Do you know any details of the refit?[/quote]

All of my Fine Scale Modeler issues are stored at the moment in a storage locker quite some distance from where I live. I have tried on several occasions to locate the original article at the Fine Scale Modeler web site but to no avail. I was hoping it would have been available to view in the archives but so far I have not found anything resembling archives at FSM on-line.

[quote="Cliffy B"]Only other modern ships they got were some DDs that I know of...[/quote][quote="Channell"]Seasick... I didn't know the Soviets got any Kriegsmarine ships after the war...[/quote]No, actually they were given the CV Graf Zeppelin but she disappeared for 60 yrs - They claimed they scrapped her, but turns out they bungled & lost her in the Eastern Baltic, new sonar footage located her off St. Petersburg. One thing to remember in negotiations is: Big ship = Big concession which = lots of little concessions elsewhere for you. We didn't need yet another enemy Battleship (or 2nd rate - by our '45 standards - Carrier) give them to Russia in exchange for something else we do want ( like Austria :whistle: ).

[quote="jeffryfontaine"][quote="Channell"]The great thing about "what if" stuff is that no idea is wrong! :thumbs_up_1:[/quote] Quite a number of years ago there was a submission to Fine Scale Modeler by one of the readers that was a What-If of the 1:350th scale Tamiya Bismark or Tirpitz fitted out with modern weapons to supplement the main gun armament. It was quite impressive.[/quote]
Do you know any details of the refit?

[quote="Channell"]The great thing about "what if" stuff is that no idea is wrong! :thumbs_up_1:[/quote] Quite a number of years ago there was a submission to Fine Scale Modeler by one of the readers that was a What-If of the 1:350th scale Tamiya Bismark or Tirpitz fitted out with modern weapons to supplement the main gun armament. It was quite impressive.

As for US upgrade - prob same as US cruisers. Perhaps replace the 15cm twins with twin Mk16 6"/47 DP turrets (as in the Worcester-class cruiser), though I think Mk42 5"/54 in-place of the 105 twins. and Mk33 3"/50 twin mounts in place of light AA mounts. Terrier Mk10 twin launchers fore & aft of the 4 end 15cm turrets with Mag housing in-place of the turrets/Mags. These turrets and the central 15cm replaced by Mk11 twin Tartar launchers. a Mk16 ASROC in-place of the catapult just aft of the funnel. Hanger removed and aft superstructure enlarged for radar & Mk33s.

over-all I suggest: 8 Mk42 5"/54 in-place of 105s, 4-8 Mk33 3"/50s in superstructure, 4 Mk10 twin Terrier launchers 2 each fore & aft, 2 Mk11 Tartar launchers midships, & a Mk16 ASROC launcher midships.

I would think with Russian upgrades - initially: replace 105mm twins with Russian 10cm Twins. strip light AA and replace with 45mm Quads (later 57mm Quads). Maybe replace the 15cm twins with imported Swedish Bofors 6"DP. or perhaps replace all 105 & 150s with 13cm/58 DP turrets (5-7) also a scattering of 25mm over-under mounts. Maybe move aft superstructure forward in-place of the hanger, 1-2 SAN-1 mounts forward of the aft turrets (or - I hate to suggest - in-place of X turret). the forward (or aft) 15cm turrets could be replaced by SS-N-2s the forward ones later replaced by SS-N-22s or a triple SS-N-9, alternately the hanger could be initially retained or stripped off and latter replaced by a SS-N-3 quad turntable rack firing broadside. SA-N-4s could later be mounted in-place of any of the 105/150 mounts as-well.

[quote="Channell"] ... like how the Rodney was literally shaking itself apart everytime she shot her big guns ... [/quote]weak British construction.
[quote="Channell"] ... getting the Prinz Eugen across the Atlantic after the war was a major project because of mechanical problems ... [/quote]That was a case of the US Sailors not reading German or being trained on the German high pressure machinery. the equipment was good just improperly maintained.

The 2 possibilities I see is 1) she's in port (perhaps Konigsberg or Danzig) as the Russians overrun the port. Stalin holds onto the ship (even though the Russians weren't able to take care of the GZ) After he's gone, she's then turned back over to East Germany - perhaps with Russian mods, or after Peal Harbor, Hitler doesn't stupidly declare war on the US. the war splits between US/Japan & Europe. Germany would still have fallen but overrun fully by Russia (maybe even France) the KM flees before the Cossack hoards to Norway and then to US as Germany falls to Russia. Japan falls to US & cold war starts. The US upgrades Bismarck as flagship of the "Free German Navy in Exile".

btw if Bismarck had survived to '44-45 she would'of had the same AA upgrades as Tirpitz so that would be the base model to use.

What about building her "as if",to follow the design studies of the early '30s? What if she was laid down a couple years earlier,and completed,say,in '37? No Atlantic bow,no funnel cap,no radar,different a/c,storage,and catapult configurations,plus a much reduced antiaircraft suite? I have seen old 1:1250 sketches by Breyer,but more info. would be needed,of course. Just thinking,a very impressive, much cleaner appearance,yet still the Bismarck.
Mike

Personally, I wouldn't worry about the back story. Just modernize it. Put on a mast like the Bremen class, add some Thales radars, OTO guns, VLS modules, stealth features on the superstructure, SeaRAMs and NH90 helicopters. Bring it right up to modern standards and turn it into a super battleship with the modern German navy. Lots of scratch building.

[quote="ijnfleetadmiral"]From Shipbucket's "Kriegsmarine 1946" thread...a third [i]Bismarck[/i]-class from about 1946.

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/7381/bbwaldersee1945.png[/quote]

That's actually kinda cool looking!

Yes, I'm still thinking about this... I've wondered what a Bismarck would look like with an enclosed bridge around the conning tower ([i]a la[/i] the USN Iowa class ships)...

From Shipbucket's "Kriegsmarine 1946" thread...a third [i]Bismarck[/i]-class from about 1946.

http://imageshack.us/a/img832/7381/bbwaldersee1945.png

Tirpitz has more 37mm flak no single 20mm, but did have some of the 20mm quads. In 1944 some of the 37mm were removed and replaced with 40mm flak.

[quote="DavidP"]Channell, why not use the 2nd bismarck reconfigured as the tirpitz before it was sunk so can see the differences between the 2 ships of which there was especially in the aa dept.?[/quote]

It is very tempting, and I've been doing a bit of research to find out a bit more on what the differences between the two ships were. Turns out there are A LOT of differences though... it would not be as easy as I first thought to mod the Trumpy kit into the Tirpitz.

Rumor is Trumpeter is going to do it for us in the near future and release a 1/200 Tirpitz too... It might be best to just wait for the inevitable aftermarket barrage before making an attempt.

I think I'm gonna put this potential project on the back burner for a bit... maybe do something else in the stash first... after the first Bissy is finished. :wave_1:

Stalin's pathology would make him want to keep such a status symbol. Being that he was building building six battleships and six battle cruisers right up until the day he died. The ships were canceled two weeks later by Khrushchev.

The Soviets did get an Italian BB ([i]Giulio Cesare[/i]) and kept her until 1955 when she struck an old mine and was summarily scrapped afterwards.

[url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_battleship_Giulio_Cesare[/url]

You could make a case for them keeping [i]Bismarck[/i] postwar but I'd say that they'd have to capture her as I doubt they'd be given such a "new" and powerful ship. [i]Nuremberg[/i] wasn't much and [i]Cesare[/i] was WWI vintage. Only other modern ships they got were some DDs that I know of. I could see the Russians refitting [i]Bismarck[/i] and using her if only as a modern stop gap until their own postwar BBs and BCs were finished IF they pursued them postwar instead of halting all capital ship construction following Stalin's demise. You could do it, just need to research it some more and word it correctly.

Seasick... I didn't know the Soviets got any Kriegsmarine ships after the war... honestly, I'd think the Soviets would keep the Bismarck and scrap/loot the lessor ships for parts if they had the opportunity!

I don't know... It's fun but [i]very[/i] hard to deviate from history without creating a mess instead of an interesting (and plausible) display.

Still thinking here... I'm not gonna start cutting the new hull up until/unless I've got a great idea and an even better plan.

Yea, I realize that David (and said it alredy)... I'm just messing around with ideas for a new 1/200 build. As I've already (almost) finished a big Bismarck already, I'm thinking it might be fun to do a "what if" version and am trying to imagine a plausible scenario.

I guess the problem with the Bismarck as a preserved and/or museum ship would be a bit pointless as she would not have much modification from wartime service... so why not just imagine an unsunk Bismarck in 1943-45?

Here's yet another idea... What about a Soviet refitted (former) Bismarck to counter the refitted Iowas, using the Kirov as inspiration?

Again, I don't know how likely it would have been for the Soviets to keep a captured Bismarck either...

It can never end up in allied custody before 1960.
1. In British custody she would be scrapped almost immediately. The British had a steel shortage all through the war and into the late 1940s.
2. The United States would have sunk her as an A-bomb target.
3. The Russians would cut her up. Also she would be stripped for spare parts for kreigsmarine ships awarded to the Soviet Union as war prizes, mainly Admiral Marakov (ex-DKM Nuremberg)
4. France like the British needed steel.
5. If Bismarck made it to Japan and survived the war she would have been an a-bomb target, or been scrapped.

She needs to find her to a remote location and be in a disposition that she can't be moved easily.
1. Interned in South America
2. beached in a secluded area near tierra del fugeo or in Antarctica.

If real life is any indication, 15 years or so sounds good. All of the fast battleships (except the Iowas) were decommissioned soon after the war, but weren't scrapped or museumized until the early '60s.

I'm pretty much convinced the Bismarck would never have been put into active service with an Allied Navy; it would just be too cost prohibitive, especially considering the Allies had too many better battleships of their own to take care of at the end of the war.

I wonder what the likelihood of a captured Bismarck finding it's way into the Mothball fleet for 50 years or so? After that it would only be natural to have her saved and restored as a museum ship.

I'm not a navy man; would the USN or (less likely) RN keep a German battleship in mothballs that they didn't really intend to use in the future? Maybe as a potential training ship that just never comes to fruition?

Maybe we could imagine Bismarck was saved with the intent to use her as a target for nuclear tests but couldn't get her to Bikini for some reason. Soon, above ground nuclear testing was banned by treaty, leaving the ship to rot in the ghost fleet instead?

How long does it take for a ship to go from mothballs to the scrapyard anyway? How is it decided which ships stay and which are disposed of?