The Ship Model Forum

For the benefit and consideration of this discussion, I would like to offer this image showing the significant impact of lighting on colors/colours.
I give you the skylights in my bathroom. (Yes, occasionally we have a spy peeking in, a squirrel or a bird.)

Both boxes are constructed essentially to identical dimensions, the skylights identical in constructions, and the spaces are painted from the same can of paint, which was also used for the walls and ceiling. As you can see they look like completely different colors.

While you can come close to the original color/colour, photos accuracy will vary with the lighting used to illuminate the ship, as well as how your models are eventually lit.

Offered for your consideration as we enjoy our hobby.

Tracy White is a USN fanatic who collaborated with Snyder and Short on the indespensible USN WWII Ship Camoflauge web site: http://www.shipcamouflage.com/index.htm. I write military history and have a lot of color books on WWII subjects and am sure White and Snyder/Short are spot on. Here's the deal. After Pearl Harbor and the instant importance of aircraft, not to mention submarines, became obvious, the wartime Navy began to shift to and redefine wartime color schemes. This was all done in a wartime context of limited materials. In addition, ships at sea and pounded by salt air/water for long periods - increasingly the case in WWII - were painted bit by bit more or less all of the time. (Some of the 1944-45 USN Pacific ships are a riot of colors thanks to fading, rust and a common flirtation with splinter camo.) What this meant was that the USN settled on ships painted in a kind of Purple Blue Hue that vary basically with the amount of white put into them. Tracy said every ship had cans of a very thick very dark purple paint that they mixed with other cans of very thick white paint. (Not sure about the solvent. I do know the very rugged pigment cadmium was not available because it was needed for making armor plate - this meant all colors were less than idea when fighting salt water. And that "purple" paste would have been a chromatic black with a purple/blue hue) The Navy abandoned these paints on VJ Day (deciding their schemes didn't really help that much) and never put them into the Federal Standard data base. So what color were they? They were defined using the still popular (and very neat when you figure it out) Munsell Color System. All major USN WWII colors were in the Purple/Blue Hue (think of that as general color type) and varied in "value" (lightness) and "chroma" (saturation). Within a hue, the higher the value, the lighter the color, the higher the chroma, the less saturated. As luck would have it, I own a Munsell student book and can see exactly what's up. The Munsell numbers are Navy Blue Value 3.5/Chroma 3; Deck Blue Value 3, Chroma 4; Haze gray value 6, chroma 3. In practice this means all of these colors are related - deck blue is the darkest, but it is slight less saturated than Navy Blue. Haze Gray is highly saturated but the lightest. Now, I could have used my Life Color paints that are quite accurate, but are hard to airbrush. (I used them and my CoulorCoates as samples - very useful.) Here's where my Golden High Flow paints come up trumps. They airspray like a dream and are by far the best water based acrylic to use for black basing. Golden makes paints for artists and while it doesn't have specific military colors it does have artist mixing colors with powerful and expensive pigments which are an absolute gas if you like to play with paint. I took me two damn days to get my colors right and I enjoyed every minute of it. Each color comes from a "chromatic black" base made with Quinacridone Red; Platho Blue (green shade) and Hansa Yellow. In practice it was needed to cut each with bits of white: sienna, black, neutral gray and Prussian Blue appear in tiny quantities. There's also scale effect which is important for a 1700/scale vessel. I lightened the value of each color a bit - I also exaggerated the differences between the three paints. (Deck and Navy Blue are first cousins but not twins - so I made them second cousins.) In retrospect I don't think I gave the colors enough purple - should have used just a bit more Quinacridone Red in the mix. I also used a purple oil paint filter and that adjusted things a little. If you want to see the results, check my renditions of 1/700 Tamiya USS Bogue in the gallery.
Eric

On my APA I used the Golden Red Oxide straight. Maybe a little bright. For the ARL I darkened it a little which seems satisfactory. Now wrestling with deck blue which I ran out of. I do have some Floquil deck blue which is an exact match. It�s been a number of years when I mixed my deck blue with acrylics so trying to remember what blue was in it.

Thanks Eric:

My 1:192 modern Missouri currently has the lower hull covered with Mr. Color #29 hull red which is pretty close to what I want. Closest hobby shop is about 400 miles which besides the fun factor is an impetus for mixing my own paints.

Rather amazing the number of different ways one can get to at least a similar result starting with primaries and on down the pike using the color mixer. Before finding that, photoshop has a similar way of creating colors. I have ordered a lot from Blick over the years, as a photographer I have gotten a lot of my framing supplies from them.

Cheers. Tom

Judging from other threads here, this color is in some dispute. I'd futz with Golden Fluid Red Oxide (which uses red oxide for the pigment) and some other red and what? And lighten or darken a bit if looks off. One place to get a comparison of things out there is Scale Hobbyist - the best price and one of the most efficient model site on the web. They also now have a very large paint selection. (https://www.scalehobbyist.com/) If you search "hull red" you'll get Tamiya XF9 Hull Red and Tamiya's lacquer spray Hull Red. There is also Hull Red from both Vallejo Model Air and Model Color and two from Testors although they look like German colors. Scale Hobbyist gives Federal Standard Numbers (yes yes, not accurate for WWII but bloody close) which you can take over to the Federal Standard Color Server page and compare:
http://www.colorserver.net/#search.

For what it's worth my color conversion software has Tamiya XF9 and Vallejo Model Air Hull Red an exact match.

If you want to see Golden Fluid Red Oxide check http://www.dickblick.com/products/golde ... -acrylics/. I use the paint a lot for starting rust patterns and it's got more red in it than it appears at least on my monitor - but you can sort of think of rust.

That's about the color I am looking for. Will have to see which are available!

Thanks: T

Burnt sienna+cadmium red light in equal measures (or play with it until you like it) + the smallest amount of black and a prick of white might do it. It should look like a dull near-brick rusty red. 'Apparently' the oft used wine color or deep crimson color is quite incorrect. It's actual pigment in the real world was red oxide lead. So quite close to burnt sienna. Burnt sienna+cad red light or medium is about it.

Still looking for some suggestions toward a mix for hull red. I have some vague ideas by working with the color space in photoshop but someone's experience might save time and materials.

Regards: Tom

Just when you thought you were safe from more paint craziness, I stumble on something neat on the Golden site. They've got liquid medium's to recreate the "resin" look and four experimental "chromatic blacks." It looks like they were messing around with producing some chromatic blacks - don't think they did it, but somewhere else on their massive site they have recipes for chromatic black. Anyway, they have a pic of four and one has a definite purple look - just as Tracy indicated. I'd assume that the crew would have simple ratios for the various colors and off you go. Check it out:

http://oldsite.goldenpaints.com/justpai ... ticle7.php

Looks like the local Blicks gets more of my money. (As luck would have it I have a Blick outlet within a mile of my house in Berkeley and my house in St. Paul Minnesota. It's fate.)

Eric

You're absolutely correct about letting the Devil have the details.
To this I will add one thing:
There is probably a fair bit of variation in the original colors....mixing their own paints aboard, slight differences in batches, etc. However, one thing that should be correct and likely wouldn't change is the nature of the blues used. While the value of the color and the overall chroma can be off by slight degrees by virtue of quantity, the exact blues in the mix should be right or the color will be incorrect for the given navy.
Black+white+either pthalo blue or Ultramarine blue (or a bit of both) is the largest determining factor in mixing ww2 navy colors.

Total speculation alert for the following:

At some point it was decided what colors and patterns the ships would be painted in. The artists/designers who came up with these ideas did their initial work on paper or canvas using artist's paints. I assume these plans were then handed to contractors who make paint. Depending on the availability of certain pigments and given the large quantities needed, the correct material sourcing would have been nailed down and adhered to for long periods. The colors in multi-paneled schemes would be based on tints of the same base colors to keep it simple. If you analyzed these paints closely enough from a mixing point of view, I'm certain (and actually came to realize when I was mixing all the S&S chips) that they're all based out of a small number of root colors that have been lightened or darkened. 90% of them black, blue, and white. The purple you refer to that the US navy was given to mix their own was most likely a very dark, ultramarine based blue with a bit of black in it giving it a slightly purple hue. From this, they could easily mix lighter tints with white...giving you the classic USN colors.

A real labor of love no doubt. I wonder who did that Urban chart. Frankly I find it so comprehensive that it's almost hard to use. There's another very large Vallejo chart (includes equivalents for Federal Standard, RAL and RLM) at http://www.hobcen.com/paints/vallejo.htm. I have a soft ware program called Paint Assistant ($20) that has been a genuine help - but is known to err. And there's always the Federal Standard 595 Color Server http://www.colorserver.net/#search.

However, when you start tracking down color details like this interesting research on RLM at http://penelope.uchicago.edu/~grout/enc ... olors.html it's kind of easy to figure that there's no single "right color." Tracy White has posted here that every US warship was given big tins of purple and white paint from which they made all their blues and grays. Tracy knows a lot and experience gained trying to make a variety of "chromatic blacks" indicates to me that he's right. So maybe we should get into the ball park and let the devil have the details.

Eric

Eric Bergerud wrote:a Brit fanatic at IPMS compiled a large chart giving recommendations for which of Vallejo Model Color's blizzard of colors matches various measures used by the major navies of WWII (also some pre and postwar). Easiest way to get it is to google "Vallejo WWII Naval Color Equivalents" - that will take you right to a PDF file.

Also linked to on our FAQ thread on paint conversion sites.

Chris' work on color mixing strikes me as being spot on - especially if working with paints is fun for you.

If you want the color matching done for you and still want to use water based acrylics (I love them because they are so easy to clean, low odor etc: easy to forget the mask which is a bad idea because all paints have pigments) a Brit fanatic at IPMS compiled a large chart giving recommendations for which of Vallejo Model Color's blizzard of colors matches various measures used by the major navies of WWII (also some pre and postwar). Easiest way to get it is to google "Vallejo WWII Naval Color Equivalents" - that will take you right to a PDF file. These are for Vallejo Model Color which are thicker than Vallejo Model Air so you have to use airbrush medium to airbrush with them. They are very much like Golden Fluid Acrylics. (Just as Golden High Flow are very like Vallejo Model Air: same pigments but considerably thinned.) The resemblance is no accident: Vallejo started in Spain to be a European version of Golden. About ten years ago they saw the modelling market and have since split off a separate division for it. But a water based acrylic is going to be a close relative regardless of brand. The Italian company LifeColor also makes water based paints and is coming out with more military colors every year - huge number now. I've used them and find them very good. Their Navy Blue, Deck Blue and Haze Gray are very close to WEM's rendition. (Lifecolor is widely available now, but Pacific Coast Models was their original importer and have an excellent line. http://www.pacmodels.com/index.php) Tamiya and Gunze really make lacquers and should be treated very differently but have undoubted strengths and deserve their popularity.

Many of the enamel fans give White Ensign Colorcoats top billing. Snyder and Short, the folk that operate the wonderful USN Ship Camouflage site appear to have a complete collection of WEM enamels in now. I don't like enamels, but did buy a tin each of USN Navy Blue, Deck Blue and Haze Gray which I've used as kind of color chips: a muse for making my own home brew colors. Also use them for dry brushing sometimes. Check:
http://www.shipcamouflage.com/colourcoats.htm

Eric

I paint my models the same each time
-base 'primer' of Krylon matte finish
-Colors are mixed and sprayed using airbrush. Golden high flow acrylics.
-weathering is done with artist's oils.
-Finishing coat of golden matte polymer varnish. This mixes 3:1 varnish to water and finishes beautifully.

I found some Testor's airbrush colors at my local "aart" store and gave this a thrash. With some experimentation I came up with a pretty decent haze gray to spray the hull on my 1:192 Missouri. I di like the way these sprayed straight and they tended to clog the airbrush almost not at all compared to the thinned model master acryl. I see that Blick carries the golden line. The high flow and high flow matte seem attractive though they are not available locally.

Thoughts on the high flow and high flow matte for ship usage?

Next question: Suggestions on mix colors for a hull red similar to Mr Color #29?

Regards: Tom

Well, shut my mouth. You do learn things every day. When I first contacted Golden about using their paints on plastic models one of their top gurus spent some time with me. He strongly recommended Fluid Acrylics over what they called Air Brush Colors. Now I've checked their web site and it turns out that in mid-2013 they replaced the Airbrush line with a new batch called High Flow. I've never used those, and I'll give it a try - although as noted, the last thing I need is more paints. But anything in the name of science or art. Regardless I've found Fluid Acrylics to be very good indeed when matched with the right medium - they're very like Vallejo Model Color which are likewise very good.

When the Golden guru was describing the Air Brush line he made it sound intended more for things like fabrics. So I put the thought aside until I stumbled on a set of paints called the Iwata Com.Art "Real Deal Weathering Set" they were pushing for model railroaders. (Described at length http://www.iwata-medea.com/products/pai ... ering-kit/). New paint, had to try. I wouldn't attempt to paint a model with this stuff, but I've found it terrific for weathering. It's absolutely impossible to describe but if you're ever near a Blick art supply store they've usually got a few dozen bottles. The useful colors are transparent and I use black and blue/gray smoke for pinwashes on almost everything. At $3 a bottle, one will last for five years or so. (Great bottles with BBs in them.) Easiest stuff I've ever used to remove and it's perfect for panel lines if you don't want them to stand out too much - a common sin among aircraft modelers in my view. It also leaves a kind of grainy texture which gives a really neat "lived in" look that works well for almost any military subject. Turns out that the Real Deal was just a selection from a much larger line of Com.Art paints that cater to almost anyone except plastic modelers. I wonder if the original Golden Air Brush line might have been akin.

Eric

I certainly didn't want to sound glib with my easy peasy remark! mixing color is a tricky thing. It's made very easy though by the fact that all these naval colors can be done with such a short list of pigments. Still though, it takes experience to know which colors to grab and use and in what quantities. I take this skill for granted perhaps having spent most of my life standing at an easel painting! Still though, with that limited palette, it's easier than you might thing. As I mentioned above, most mixes start with titanium white and mars black (for modelling, the black doesn't really matter). From there, you're only one or two colors away from the final tone.

Regarding spraying etc.
The Golden high flow acrylics need never be thinned for spraying. I've never had to thin them once. I spray them and brush them out of the bottle with smooth and very perfect finish. Some of the acrylics are very transparent such as quinacridone red, thalo blue/green, etc.

Regarding toxicity:
Wear a mask and have perfect ventilation. I would recommend this with any product by any manufacturer. Golden high flow are clearly labelled with Carcinogenic warnings. To their credit though, they don't make any paints using any of the potently carcinogens such as Cadmium.

If you're starting out with a new goal of trying mixed paints/acrylics; give Krylon Matte finish a try. It is the most outstanding base 'primer' I've ever tried. A good coat of that left to dry over night becomes a lovely, paper-like surface for airbrushing and hand painting. It bonds very confidently to styrene.

Chris,

Very impressive and the page is bookmarked.

I'm a Golden fan also and have done several models from primes or something close to it. If you don't mind I would like to quibble about the "easy peasy" theme. Color mixing in my experience is something that is simpler in theory than in practice. I don't doubt that someone that knows the ropes very well could duplicate the Snyder and Short samples pretty quickly. I'm not so sure if it's a drop dead dunk if you're coming from the world of standard model paints.

First, when you're using Golden colors it's a good idea to get the basics right. Titanium white (a wonderful paint) is very different from the far less opaque Zinc White which is really a mixer. Likewise, carbon black has more punch than bone black. And heaven knows they have blues and greens that have very different effects when put into a mix. I had great fun using Golden's recipe for a Chromatic Black using both platho blue (red) and platho blue (green): they both looked black but showed their difference when cut with white. They're aren't lots of gray/greens on ships but lots on aircraft and even armor. And if you want to start with something that's very close to neutral gray, a Canadian company called Tri-Art makes a rendition that's just a bit thicker than Golden Fluid but still easily manageable. (I'd sure add Golden Buff to my collection: very nice for creating multi-shaded wood. Actually, now that I check their page they've added a few new colors to the fluid range that look neat. Still don't have a neutral gray. Wonder what would happen if one cut Payne's gray. Just what I need - more paint.)

Probably the biggest learning curve is applying the stuff. I've found that Golden does not kid you when they warn against using more than a very small amount of water for thinning. Golden is a vinyl acrylic that lays down a kind of mask as it dries - very different than Tamiya which is really a lacquer. Anyway, too much water and that film will start to get fragile and ultimately fail to cohere. So you become familiar with various mediums & extenders especially if you want to use an airbrush. (The stuff is terrific to hand brush as one might expect considering their main market.)

I had plans to master the craft and to do more or less what you suggest - make almost everything out of a handful of colors functioning as primes. In the real world I found it easy to get lazy and every time I was on Scale Hobbyist or another site that sells them, I was picking up a couple of bottles of Vallejo Model Color which act very much like Golden but are premixed. You know: only $2. After a while I find myself with a pretty good collection of Vallejo and Golden. No accident that Vallejo started as the maker of high quality artist acrylics and still sell a lot of them.

I love working with either - so clean, no smell and terrific colors. (Golden warns people not to forget to wear a mask unless you're sure the pigment is benign. Stuff like zinc, even though it is odorless is not. One thing nice about the Golden website is such details are available along with guides to opacity.) That said, for some kind of airbrushing it's tough to beat Tamiya or Gunze. If something requires a very thin coat at very low PSI (probably more typically armor or a plane) the lacquer/acrylics really come into their own.

Quibbles aside I encourage others to give the artist acrylics a try. They're mostly sold to serious amateur and professional painters and can't be beat for lovely color. And if you liked finger painting as a kid, color mixing is great fun. It's a rare day when I hit a color on the head with the first brew, so I'll end up spending some serious listening to music and making pretty colors. And eventually even I'll get there. A mellow task from start to finish and totally lacking the "should I end it all" moments that show up when working with PE.

ya for sure. I narrowed the topic down to ships; but it applies to just about everything...diorama colors, weathering, most military subjects, natural colors etc.

As someone who has also studied colour theory and applied it in different genres of scale models I must say: this is a great write-up, and IMHO a must read for every modeller (ships, armour, figures, ...)!

An extra note: all of this doesn't only apply to mixing base-colours, but also very much to weathering.