The Ship Model Forum

Finding details info on the booms may be interesting, perhaps the best source is to re screen and capture from "Away All Boats" which provided much of the fine detail info previously. For the ARL booms I had my dad's WWII photos, being originals were of good clarity.

Cheers: Tom

Tom,
I agree with Phil - you're already "smitten" with both your spousal applicant (LOL!!) and redoing the APA booms - no rehab - just give in to the overpowering desire to "do better" and let the ship modeling gods take you where they will!!! LMAO!!!!

As for wire inserts - let me know if I can send you anything - I have some of my used Les Paul strings that need to find a home - let me know the inside diameters you might need. This would be a good research & design exercise for the summer!

Hank

Sounds like the can is already open! So, is this going to nag at you forever? Is it already on your to-do list, whether you like it or not?

Phil

One issue with 3D printing is the tendency to re do items that were less satisfactory. By contrast the booms on the APA are perhaps a bit cruder than necessary, being built out of wooden dowels. If I can find enough data on the booms perhaps I will re do them and much of the running gear. As I mentioned I rather liked the booms I did for the ARL, using the same piano wire core that I have used with the masts I have constructed. Most of the booms will be the same (I think) and a large number could be printed vertically, a long print process but worthwhile. The only difficulty I could think of here is cleaning out the central hollow of many booms. Bubbles tend to form which solidify and block the wire insertion unless vigorous cleaning with a wire is undertaken while they dry. Then, Ummmm. re rigging everything? I'm sure that I could do a much better job now. Maybe I could do a better job on the winches, maybe... The current ones are resin cast, though pretty good.

I began this ship model before I could even spell "3D" and have re done many items, all of the LCVP's were originally resin castings, all of the AA (Lots of 40 mm and 20 mm) as well as the stern 5" 38. The anchors are hand carved as well as the anchor chain and I could probably do better with my assortment of current anchors, but I think I'll probably leave those alone because of the necessity to remove the fwd 40 mm deckhouse to work on those.

Arrgh! Should I even open this can of worms?

My new Spousal Applicant very much likes my ship models, so eventually bases ands cases will be constructed. We are in the first stages of a major earthquake of re organizing the house. The APA suffered some minor dockyard rash to the foremast which needs repairing. I probably won't do it but if I was building this ship today I would 3D print the traditionally constructed wood, brass and turned aluminum booms and masts. The ones on the ARL came out well.

Tom

If I am a pro at anything, it's "Crastination". The ship sits on a table in my studio/workshop along with Caine and Whitehurst (Poseidon sits on the window sill). She lacks a base and case and final rigging. Rigging is one of my least favorite tasks. Base wise, I like the dry dock type blocks as Hank Strub has effectively used and my 1:515 Whitehurst employs. This construction spanned an era when I learned skills in 3D printing and this and many models have had numerous parts upgraded and replaced. Some of the hand made parts could still be replaced via printed ones, the anchors carved from basswood for example by Navy Stockless ones I have printed for other projects, my hand made brass propeller by a printed one?

At some point we should say enough already, maybe I could replace the anchor chain, carved from styrene link by link in the "Song" manner, but it's hidden the forward quad 40 deckhouse. A large model project can take years and sometimes our modeling knowledge and technique change (improve?). Rabbit holes as well, the deck loads was another whole project!

So I'll get to do some work on it, once I get off the mail buoy watch.

Tom

too bad ! Alaska is quite far from Sete (South of France) !

Mais Non! The closest I came to being French was my first antecedent in the New World left Gurnsey in about 1720. I live in Alaska and of course enjoy the wonderful French wine and cuisine. I was quite pleased at the graciousness of the people of Paris for their kind tolerance of my somewhat basic French!

One of the unforeseen side effects of this project was the design and printing of the military deckled of vehicles. This inadvertently led to me being sidelined to resurrecting a decades old White Pass and Yukon Railroad project, printing many of their unique rolling stock items.

She badly needs a base and display case, I will probably use the keel block mounting as done by Hank Strub on several of his projects.

Best regards: Tom

Hi ! I Think you are french, where is it possible to have a look at this fantastic work ? (I'm french)

I began this conversion before I knew how to spell "3D", let alone have such capability. Many items were hand made and then replaced with 3D items. Examples were such as the fleet of Higgins boats (LCVP) though the traditionally build LCM's remain. All the light AA and the 5"38 are all now printed as are some of the blocks in the running rigging. However the booms and masts are all constructed from brass, aluminum and wood. For the ARL I replaced this technique with printed ones. Some development ensued to get ones that were satisfactory, curving was an issue. Eventually I overcame mast printing issues by making them hollow and inserting a stout steel piano wire. If I was a glutton I would go back and re do these, if...

The original inclined ladders were made from paper using a jig, with brass handrails. These were "OK" but my advancing printing capability allowed much better and more uniform ones. Originally weather deck hatches (doors) were resin castings, as were all the winches. I replaced the hatches but the winches remain. I could probably do a little better job on these today, but they are OK.

The main obstacle to re doing anything? Rigging, it's a spider web preventing access to almost everything.

Tom

Not "Modern Art (remember that?) In the Mid East (Not Ohio) women weren't traditionally allowed out of the house without escort, much like auxiliaries during wartime. All the excitement the gentleman get is a little T&A (Toes and Ankles) so this is a toes and ankles view of the APA, only her husband knows about the rest.

Cheers: Tom

Tom,

I'm sorry you took David's question as an insult. I didn't. His first comment clearly assumed the ship has a bilge keel and you were waiting until the model was about finished to add it. And he clearly was surprised to learn that you thought the APA didn't have a bilge keel. I took his question "are you sure" as a request for more information. And I think he has clearly demonstrated proof to support his doubt about your model.

You can't tell if a vessel had a bilge keel or not from the station lines cross sections drawings because bilge keels and other things external to the hull (prop struts, boat booms, etc) sometimes aren't shown on these drawings (sometimes bilge keels are). The best bet is either to have a photo or blueprint for the ship showing the location or construction of a bilge keel (proof it had a bilge keel) or drydock photos showing the absence of a bilge keel (proof it didn't have a bilge keel). Otherwise you can't be sure.

Personally, I found the discussion enlightening. I have assumed large ships would have a bilge keel because of the stabilization they provided to dampen rolling. But assumptions are always subject to question and doubt. And perhaps because I am susceptible to motion sickness, and was nauseous a large part of my time in the Navy, I always hope that a ship has some feature for roll stabilization!

I can see that they might be absent for two reasons:

1. They generally do not protrude beyond the side of the ship at the waterline. But if the vessel is flat bottomed and flat sided, like the APA, there really isn't room to fit much of a bilge keel.

2. A flat bottomed vessel with a very sharp turn of the bilge will have a natural resistance to rolling. Because of the amount of water that must be displaced as the flat sides, bottom and turn of the bilge rotate around the longitudinal axis there will be a lot more resistance to rolling than in more round bottomed ships - where you usually see a bilge keel. So flat bottomed vessels probably don't need a bilge keel - barges typically don't have them.

However, the Iowa class battleship had flat bottoms, vertical sides and sharp radius turns of the bilge, and I have seen drawings showing bilge keels on these ships, and photo NY1-5237 7-27-51 of the Iowa in drydock clearly shows the bilge keel. And roll dampening is important for aiming and firing big guns, which transports don't have. So flat bottomed vessels may have bilge keels.

And, as David's photos show, flat bottomed transports may have bilge keels.

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As for the Revell model I suspect they used their existing liberty ship hull for the APA (according to Wikipedia, the ultimate source of knowledge (right and wrong) the APAs were built on liberty ship hulls. However, the plastic models of the mid 20th century were often far from accurate! So did liberty ships have bilge keels?

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One misconception about bilge keels is that they ran fore and aft parallel to the ship centerline. This is not necessarily true. They ran parallel to the flow of water around the hull, and this was not a straight line on most ships but was a complex curve.

Phil

I am pleased with the decisions I have made on MY project, just go away, no further comments on any project by myself will be answered. Go work on your own project.

It would be more useful for Mr P to present some evidence rather than make some comment out of his nether regions. In fact many large vessels do not have bilge keels, There have been many models made of Haskell transports and none I have seen have bilge keels (not a primary source) The profile in the BOGP show none, the hull lines show none and the dry dock photo of APA 227 do not indicate any though the turn of the bilge is in some shadow.
I did see one photo of an APA beached with mine damage that had a bilge keel, unlike one I had ever seen, looked very home made, perhaps instigated at the Captain's request during a yard period.

So notwithstanding conclusive evidence to the contrary It is MY INTERPRETATION that USS Randall, APA 224, did not have bilge keels.

Tom

Timmy C. wrote:

So while the question of "Did she have bilge keels" is legitimate, the question isn't really necessary (and certainly not essentially asked twice) given the asker's proven ability to find the answer to that themselves. Posing the question and doubling down on the question serves no purpose but to cast doubts as to the builder's ability to do basic research on his model. Such behaviour can definitely be interpreted as "trolling".

Thanks, TC for seeing the obvious. I would also point out one other comment made by the same person which I think says even more about his real intent of posting -

also if you do not want criticism of your work then you shouldn't post pictures of that work.

Constructive criticism is one thing - and a GOOD thing, IMHO - but criticism, as this member stated is NOT what I thought this forum was all about. Perhaps I was wrong. I think most members who post their builds are rather selective in what photos they do post about their models, I know I am, and sometimes I'm ashamed at my lack of photographic skills to show my model in it's best light. But I do so in hopes of getting commentary back from other members, both good & bad. Thru the years I've learned quite a bit from the feedback I've received on my builds, not to mention gaining knowledge from comments made on others builds.

When the original question was posted my first thought was that this is totally out of place at this point in Tom's construction. It might possibly have been valid when he was getting ready to paint his hull but that was a long time back.

I agree with both Tom and TC's assessment - the question was nothing more than trolling and I'll echo Tom's comment - Stay off my build threads unless you have something CONSTRUCTIVE to add, etc.

Personally, I don't have the time or interest to spend all day poring over the entire SMF looking for threads to throw snippet bombs at others work; I actually have a life!! I know this because The Admiral told me so!!!

Hank

Thing is, the builder has clearly shown he has done serious research on his models. There's no reason to think that he would forget something so obvious as bilge keels.

At the same time, the "asker" has shown a willingness to do basic research in previous posts, such as pulling up at least BoGP drawings for various vessels available online (such as this set for a Haskell), which would easily indicate an absence of bilge keels. While BoGPs aren't the be-all and end-all of details, bilge keels do appear in other ships' BoGPs, and at the very least it puts the onus on the proving the presence of bilge keels.

So while the question of "Did she have bilge keels" is legitimate, the question isn't really necessary (and certainly not essentially asked twice) given the asker's proven ability to find the answer to that themselves. Posing the question and doubling down on the question serves no purpose but to cast doubts as to the builder's ability to do basic research on his model. Such behaviour can definitely be interpreted as "trolling".

David's question is legitimate - I certainly don't understand what you mean by "trolling" and he isn't asking you to prove the negative.

He asked if the APA had bilge keels. Since most large vessels do have bilge keels it is a legitimate question. I would think it unusual if it did not have bilge keels, but maybe it didn't. The Revell model had bilge keels.

There are three answers to his question; yes, no and I don't know. Yes or no imply certain knowledge, and for that there would be photographs or plans to support the answer.

And I certainly take exception to the holier than thou attitude that someone has to be a modeler to be worthy of asking questions about a ship or model. A question exists on it's own merit, regardless of who asks it.

I do think Tom's model is beautiful, and well executed.

Phil

Tom,

Good reply (to the troll) - as usual, those who can't - make comments. Those who can and DO - make models!!!

Your APA is looking Stout and ready for sea!!! Excellent work - always inspiring to me!!

Hank

Very nice shipmodel!

Ah, proving the negative, this is a little like the yes or no question, "Have you quit beating your wife". This is trolling and you will be welcome back when you begin showing your good (model) works to all.