Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

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Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Devin » Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:48 am

Walt,

I want to apologize, as I take from your post that I was saying the Vietnam vets were some way at fault. I did not intend that, and indeed, as I posted, I have problems with what Kerry said after the war. I did not serve in Vietnam and do not pretend to know what it was like. It was not my intention to criticize anyone's service there. My problem, and evidently I did not make this clear, is with the political 527 group, that was indeed formed in 2004 and funded by political money. To me that campaign, which dealt very little if at all with the subject matter of the Buckley address linked above, is yet another instance of politics so muddying the waters that the real truth may never be known. Maybe Kerry did forge some of his record, but some Swift Boat members have indeed left the group over the 527's accusations of Kerry, and I believe there's a lot more going on than is being said, probably by both sides. It's probably too volatile of a topic for discussion on this board, so I'll let the issue drop. Again, no offense intended.

-Devin

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Werner » Mon Jul 07, 2008 8:01 am

Walt, I owe you a drink. Meanwhile, let's remember it was people like Kerry who made the rest have to serve just that much longer.

John McCain (who doesn't talk about these things much, as opposed to flapjaw Kerry) said his guards used to gleefully report on John Kerry's activities to the guys in the Hanoi Hilton.

I ask anyone who wants to defend Kerry and his kind to read Bill Buckley's 1971 West Point commencement address first. Incidentally, another pre-2004 mention of John Kerry....

It is an elegant indictment of the man for sedition.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Walt » Mon Jul 07, 2008 6:10 am

Devin wrote:
Werner wrote:Don't get me started with Kerry and the Swiftvets. ...When his colleagues had an opportunity to see the record much later, they were outraged and began the campaign to correct the infamous Kerry history

....one of Kerry's Purple Hearts is for a wound treated "with bactene and a band-aid."
Well it certainly was fortunate for the Swift Boat guys that they just happened to "want to set the record straight" immediately after Kerry locked up the nomination. Amazing that they just happened to get their ads on television three months before the election. I'm sure they also couldn't believe their luck when the very benevolent Bob J. Perry, who also just happened to be the largest Republican donation contributor in Texas, stepped up to give them tons of cash for their project to "tell the truth." Honestly, why would they think someone who had already given so much money to George Bush's campaign want to help them out? I bet they fell on the floor in disbelief when Merrie Spaeth and Kenneth Cordier wanted to help them out, too.

Nonsense. As a vet, the whole Swift Boat debacle makes me wretch. Forget Kerry's politics. I don't agree with what he said after the war, but at least he was over there fighting for the rights to say the things he said. He earned the right, and if people don't like it, then at least they could go up against him honestly. Kerry is a veteran, and if the Swift Boaters and those who agree with them don't think a purple heart or two and a combat record is worth honoring, then that's their problem. Anyone who attacks a decorated vet's record for political gain should be ashamed of themselves, and anyone who condones the actions of those "swift" guys and now say that Wesley Clarke is out of line for his comments should look up the definition of Hypocrite in a dictionary.

The Swift Boat ads were a disingenuous political stunt that were unfortunately effective. McCain has said as much, and one of the original members, Steve Hayes left the group saying "it became clear to me that it was morphing from an organization to set the record straight into a political vendetta. They knew it was not the truth."

Disgraceful. Can we please not sully this board by mentioning the Swift Boat guys ever again?

The problem us Vietnam Vets have with Kerry are many. He slandered his comrades when he returned and threw his "Hard won" decorations away just to bring them up for his own political gain years later. Kerry is a fraud, his service was ticket punching, butt kissin BS, His fellow sailors say he was a fraud and for the record there is no "Combat V" for a Silver Star. His Purple hearts were always in question and his commanders were reluctant to award them, Kerry was well connected with a few fellow well connected officers all hell bent on getting their tickets punched usually at the expense of some poor Draftee who had the great misfortune of having been assigned to his command. If Kerry was in an Infantry outfit "fragging" may have been his ticket to his Purple Heart. But least we forget, Mr. Kerry has the only Silver Star ever awarded with a Combat V.. Or at least according to him. Don't get any Vietnam Vet especially one who was serving and fighting while Kerry was rubbing elbows with the anti war anti vet crowd of idiots back home.
And to Mr Kerry's and his Comrade's surprise, our drug strained, village burning, baby killin memories are not that short ...
As for Gen Clark.. I know someone very close to me who served under this man's command. His comments about Clark are not fit for this forum..Clark was a very bad commander who's retirement resulted in much celebration..and his post military political career is a continuation of his abrasive incompetence being a prime tool for the anti military bunch on the Left. Anyone can or should be able to recognise this. Clark is not a bright person by any standard hench he is a prime candidate for the "puppet of the Year" award.
Oh and for the record,, there is no Combat V awarded with the Silver Star.. The Silver Star is a Combat Only Decoration.

Disgraceful you say? I agree.. John Kerry is a disgrace.. who to his surprise, his chickens came home to roost.
You are correct. Kerry was not worthy the Swift Boat guys attention..It's a disgrace to the rest of us and our Media that they had to remind the Country what a fraud Kerry is. And for the record we were not fighting for the rights of someone to slander our service. If Kerry was willing to walk that walk and talk that talk then he should shut up when the Swiftboat guys exercise their hard won "RIGHTS" to call Kerry the fraud he is.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Werner » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:21 pm

America has no native criminal class, except Congress. ~ Mark Twain

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Devin » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:11 pm

Werner wrote:So you knew that the Swiftvets have been active against Kerry since the war and still you said that they only appeared in 2004? Perhaps that was just a slip of the tongue.
I was implying the television ads; sorry, I'll try to be clearer. Also, I was doubting the contentions against what happened on the boat which was great fodder for the fortuitously timed television ads. Things that 3500 individuals would know nothing about.
Werner wrote:I hope this is all I have to write about this disgrace of a human being and his Vietnam lies.
Works for me. I'm done, as this "discussion" is, as usual, no discussion.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Ultimo Tiger » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:29 pm

The only thing I have against Mr Kerry is that fact he wears flip flops.


True story.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Werner » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:22 pm

Devin wrote:
Werner wrote:Admiral Roy Hoffman started the campaign against Kerry in 1971 and over 3,500 men of the Swiftboats in Vietnam signed his first petition. John O'Neill debated Kerry on the Dick Cavett Show in 1971. 2004 is the date of the incorporation of the 527 group in accordance with the legal changes in campaign law brought about by the McCain-Feingold Act. Even the biased article in Wikipedia will support this.
Read that debate on the Cavett show. I have. 3500 men signed a petition? 3500 men actually served with that man on his boat? That's one big boat.

I should be ashamed of myself for not wanting a vet to be dragged through the mud? Fine. I'm ashamed for reading the facts myself and making my own conclusion, and not basing my ideas on what someone else purports to be the truth. I'm more ashamed that people buy into this drivel for the sake of politics. People are smart enough to know that the 2004 tirades were not a coincidence.

Believe it if you want.
So you knew that the Swiftvets have been active against Kerry since the war and still you said that they only appeared in 2004? Perhaps that was just a slip of the tongue.

Did I say the 3,500 served in his boat? I said 3,500 veterans of swift boats signed the first petition.

I do not want a vet dragged through the mud. I want this opportunist traitor who dragged the USA through the mud treated as he should.

This reminds me of the argument about Kerry's service in Vietnam vs Bush's flying supersonic deathtraps in Texas during the second election. Nobody argues that Kerry was in Vietnam and Bush was in the Guard. What was at stake was "Reporting for Duty" Kerry made his entire career out of a three month combat tour. Bush never brought up his guard service. His detractors did.

The Swiftvets have asked Kerry many times to order the release of his jacket so this argument could be fought apples-to-apples. Kerry not only refuses, but refuses any further debate of his service. I'd say the onus is on Kerry to be more forthcoming. I have made my decisions based on my experience and review of the available data. I'd say if Kerry won't defend himself on the record, that says all I want to know.

I hope this is all I have to write about this disgrace of a human being and his Vietnam lies.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Devin » Fri Jul 04, 2008 5:10 pm

Werner wrote:Admiral Roy Hoffman started the campaign against Kerry in 1971 and over 3,500 men of the Swiftboats in Vietnam signed his first petition. John O'Neill debated Kerry on the Dick Cavett Show in 1971. 2004 is the date of the incorporation of the 527 group in accordance with the legal changes in campaign law brought about by the McCain-Feingold Act. Even the biased article in Wikipedia will support this.
Read that debate on the Cavett show. I have. Don't recall much about whether he deserved his medals or purple heart, but it's been a while since I read it. 3500 men signed a petition? 3500 men actually served with that man on his boat? That's one big boat. I don't doubt they signed some petition, but was it about what was brought up in the 2004 election? I doubt it very much.

There are no lies in what I wrote. Look up the facts if you don't believe them. I can supply links to that information, but I don't want to do the work for you. It's all easy to check and verify, though.

I should be ashamed of myself for not wanting a vet to be dragged through the mud? Fine. I'm ashamed for reading the facts myself and making my own conclusion, and not basing my ideas on what someone else purports to be the truth. I'm more ashamed that people buy into this drivel for the sake of politics. People are smart enough to know that the 2004 tirades were not a coincidence.

Believe it if you want. The truth is that without the election and the political money, that information would not have come out in that manner in 2004. To believe any less is to be gullible.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Werner » Fri Jul 04, 2008 4:38 pm

Pure lies.

Admiral Roy Hoffman started the campaign against Kerry in 1971 and over 3,500 men of the Swiftboats in Vietnam signed his first petition. John O'Neill debated Kerry on the Dick Cavett Show in 1971. 2004 is the date of the incorporation of the 527 group in accordance with the legal changes in campaign law brought about by the McCain-Feingold Act. Even the biased article in Wikipedia will support this.

Let's set the record straight: the drumbeat against Kerry has been continuous since he returned from his sixteen weeks in Vietnam, which include a fictitious 1968 Christmas visit to Cambodia which is "seared into his memory", according to the Congressional Record.

The Swiftvets include most of the members of PC Flotilla 94 who served with Kerry.

You should be ashamed of yourself for swallowing Kerry's hook. I would advise not questioning the loyalty of the 3,500 who denounce Kerry if I were in your position. Kerry is a traitor who should be subject to the punishment appropriate for treason in wartime.

I think it's amusing that Boston, once known for stout upbringing and conservative Christian values should be represented in the Senate by a traitor on one side, and an admitted drunkard and philanderer on the other.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Devin » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:57 pm

Werner wrote:Don't get me started with Kerry and the Swiftvets. ...When his colleagues had an opportunity to see the record much later, they were outraged and began the campaign to correct the infamous Kerry history

....one of Kerry's Purple Hearts is for a wound treated "with bactene and a band-aid."
Well it certainly was fortunate for the Swift Boat guys that they just happened to "want to set the record straight" immediately after Kerry locked up the nomination. Amazing that they just happened to get their ads on television three months before the election. I'm sure they also couldn't believe their luck when the very benevolent Bob J. Perry, who also just happened to be the largest Republican donation contributor in Texas, stepped up to give them tons of cash for their project to "tell the truth." Honestly, why would they think someone who had already given so much money to George Bush's campaign want to help them out? I bet they fell on the floor in disbelief when Merrie Spaeth and Kenneth Cordier wanted to help them out, too.

Nonsense. As a vet, the whole Swift Boat debacle makes me wretch. Forget Kerry's politics. I don't agree with what he said after the war, but at least he was over there fighting for the rights to say the things he said. He earned the right, and if people don't like it, then at least they could go up against him honestly. Kerry is a veteran, and if the Swift Boaters and those who agree with them don't think a purple heart or two and a combat record is worth honoring, then that's their problem. Anyone who attacks a decorated vet's record for political gain should be ashamed of themselves, and anyone who condones the actions of those "swift" guys and now say that Wesley Clarke is out of line for his comments should look up the definition of Hypocrite in a dictionary.

The Swift Boat ads were a disingenuous political stunt that were unfortunately effective. McCain has said as much, and one of the original members, Steve Hayes left the group saying "it became clear to me that it was morphing from an organization to set the record straight into a political vendetta. They knew it was not the truth."

Disgraceful. Can we please not sully this board by mentioning the Swift Boat guys ever again?

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Werner » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:04 pm

HMAS wrote:Werner
Can you pop in a poll?
Do you agree with Gen. Wesley Clark's contention that Sen. John McCain's military experience, including his time as a POW, doesn't qualify him to be commander-in-chief?

Q 1 I agree. As Clark said, "I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president."

Q 2 I disagree. McCain has shown his character in ways few have. He's ready to be commander-in-chief.


out of curiosity I would like to see if the results are similar to another forum
Tony
Tony:

You're welcome to start one. If you need help, I'll assist.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by HMAS » Fri Jul 04, 2008 9:42 am

Werner
Can you pop in a poll?
Do you agree with Gen. Wesley Clark's contention that Sen. John McCain's military experience, including his time as a POW, doesn't qualify him to be commander-in-chief?

Q 1 I agree. As Clark said, "I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president."

Q 2 I disagree. McCain has shown his character in ways few have. He's ready to be commander-in-chief.


out of curiosity I would like to see if the results are similar to another forum
Tony

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by pingjockey » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:12 am

chuck wrote: And don't give me the crap about MaCain leaving the navy in order to serve in congress. He left the Navy because he was stuck in dead end jobs and deemed not suitable for further promotion beyond Captain.
What is your source for this allegation?

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by pingjockey » Fri Jul 04, 2008 6:07 am

Gerarddm wrote:I don't know what the Navy's physical requirements are for higher command, but I can tell you that to command a DDG you don't have to be a paragon of fitness. I forget which one now, but one of the Burkes had as her first captain a noticeably overweight woman. Photo at NavHist, IIRC.
The physical requirements to command are the same as the physical requirements of the most junior sailor on the ship. As for the overweight officer you speak of, I am not sure when the picture you reference was taken. There was a time where body fat and physical conditioning were not taken too seriously in the Navy. The rules have been tightened but there are still some who slip through the cracks.
In addition to the requirements above, life onboard ship can be arduous. You cannot have any physical conditions which would inhibit your ability to perform your duties. For example there are hundreds of vertical ladders all over the ship. McCain not being able to lift his arms over his head would probably disqualify him, in my opinion. I know many guys who were medically discharged because their physical conditions would not allow them to perform shipboard duties.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Werner » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:57 am

As I recall, a number of Armed Services Committee meetings are confidential. Mr. Clark would not have access to the deliberations, so he would not know McCain's role there.

As for "executive experience", which I take Mr. Clark means "command experience", McCain commanded VA-174, and his duties in VA-163 are not entirely clear. Commanding an attack squadron is a complex task, where one flies more than a desk, but must still manage two dozen "prima donna" pilots, a hundred or so enlisted men and coordinate with the ship and task force command. In addition, McCain attended the National War College, where they teach this sort of thing, including practical exercises, and as liason to the Senate, he had an "army" of military personnel and civilians at his command.

I would ask for a Marine aviator here to compare the duties of a staff officer and a squadron commander.

The real point or Clark's fit and tirade is missed, for what formations has Barak Obama commanded? What are the decisions he made that sent men in harm's way? These three man each have unique answers: McCain was awarded and promoted as one of the most distinguished men of the Vietnam War.

Clark was fired as commander in an international command for insubordination, as well as failure of "integrity and character", and dismissed from the service. Most of his peers speak of him derisively, as if the man had "lost it".

Any how many divisions or planes did Obama command? What are his qualifications for leadership? Speaking as a citizen of Illinois, I have a little more insight. He followed the orders of his leader Mike Madigan without debate or question, and voted "present" hundreds and hundreds of times, lacking the knowledge or courage to say "yay" or "nay". The city he represented now has the highest sales tax in the USA, on top of city, county, regional transportation, and state taxes. I would endorse his fitrep as "unfit for further duty", notwithstanding the insane proposal to nationalize the charity system and force every student to perform hundreds of hours of community service at $30-40 an hour, adding to the estimated additional $1 trillion in debt his prevously announced programs will generate. The tax burden for these programs will either destroy the dollar as a currency of international trade, making fuel and so much else unaffordable, but they will throw the country into deep depression and strip the average person of his life's savings, pension and retirement.

He is a dangerous socialist who will destroy the country.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by chuck » Fri Jul 04, 2008 3:05 am

General Wesley Clark Said:
Because in the matters of national security policy-making, it's a matter of understanding risk. It's a matter of gauging your opponents, and it's a matter of being held accountable. John McCain's never done any of that in his official positions. I certainly honor his service as a prisoner of war. He was a hero to me and to hundreds of thousands and millions of others in Armed Forces as a prisoner of war. He has been a voice on the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he has traveled all over the world. But he hasn't held executive responsibility. That large squadron in the Navy that he commanded, it wasn't a wartime squadron. He hasn't been there and ordered the bombs to fall. He hasn't seen what it's like when diplomats come in and say, 'I don't know whether we're going to be able to get this point through or not. Do you want to take the risk? What about your reputation? How do we handle it? ... I don't think riding in a fighter plane and getting shot down is a qualification to be president.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Werner » Fri Jul 04, 2008 12:25 am

May I have notice of the phrase "post paid"?

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by winstonshu » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:52 pm

Gerarddm wrote:That referenced NY Time article puts post paid to Werner's observations.

a) He was offered a star. He turned it down to become a politician.
b) Whatever the extent of his injuries, he certainly could raise at least one arm above his waist at least back in '73, because there's a photo of him waving, hand above shoulder height.

I don't know what the Navy's physical requirements are for higher command, but I can tell you that to command a DDG you don't have to be a paragon of fitness. I forget which one now, but one of the Burkes had as her first captain a noticeably overweight woman. Photo at NavHist, IIRC.
it also puts paid to the insulting insinuations that mccain was unfit or unpromotable or whatever the word you guys choose to use to admiral.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by Gerarddm » Thu Jul 03, 2008 11:33 pm

That referenced NY Time article puts post paid to Werner's observations.

a) He was offered a star. He turned it down to become a politician.
b) Whatever the extent of his injuries, he certainly could raise at least one arm above his waist at least back in '73, because there's a photo of him waving, hand above shoulder height.

I don't know what the Navy's physical requirements are for higher command, but I can tell you that to command a DDG you don't have to be a paragon of fitness. I forget which one now, but one of the Burkes had as her first captain a noticeably overweight woman. Photo at NavHist, IIRC.

Re: Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

by winstonshu » Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:52 pm

per the NYTimes,
WASHINGTON � At a meeting in his Pentagon office in early 1981, Secretary of the Navy John F. Lehman told Capt. John S. McCain III that he was about to attain his life ambition: becoming an admiral.
http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/us/po ... ref=slogin

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