Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (PDF File)

[Werner]

Captain John McCain's official USN jacket (released under FOIA request);

http://www.npc.navy.mil/NR/rdonlyres/33 ... cument.pdf

[pingjockey]

With all the bashing of McCain's military service that the left is conducting I would make a campaign ad using lines from his numerous citations, especially the one discussing his leadership role while a POW. That would shut up morons like Wesley Clark who says being shot down does not qualify him to be president.

[Werner]

It's also interesting that while both Clark and McCain attended the National War College, in the area of citations McCain leads Clark by two.

Remember, Halsey was 43rd in a class of 52 at the Academy.

[Devin]

With all the bashing of McCain's military service that the left is conducting ...

The Left learned from the Right. Remember it was the Bush campaign that started bashing McCain's service record 8 years ago. And then they did it again 4 years ago with Kerry. If there's anyone guilty of putting down a veteran's service for political gain it's the Right. They've written the book on it. Hopefully the Left won't stoop so low as to use all of their tricks.

[Ultimo Tiger]

I read that when the Vietmanese learned who he was, they did treat him better apparently because they saw him as such a special prize being related to an Admiral and all.

Still, 6 years being stuck in a hostile place like Vietnam isn't my idea of a picnic. And that story of special treatment could be a lie for all I know.

The guy did his service for his country and nothing more can be asked of a man. He was also lucky enough to survive that hit on his A-4 which triggered the Forrestal fire. He's lucky he didn't get cooked alive.

Regardless of whether he is suitbale to be the leader of the US or not, bashing mans career in the forces is just wrong.

I reckon he could do a better job in Iraq than Bush did. At least McCain has some idea of how things on the frontline work and such.

[Werner]

If you compare the treatment of McCain and Stockdale, you see they didn't lighten particularly on him or at least on the ones who survived capture. As a whole their treatment was deliberately brutal and inhumane.

[Ultimo Tiger]

So the "special treatment" thing was probably made up to discredit him?

Thought so.

[chuck]

With all the bashing of McCain's military service that the left is conducting I would make a campaign ad using lines from his numerous citations, especially the one discussing his leadership role while a POW. That would shut up morons like Wesley Clark who says being shot down does not qualify him to be president.

Is it because of MaCain's leadership ability that he had to leave the Navy as an O-6 with no prospect of advancement?

Is it because Wesley Clark was a Moron that he advance all the way to O-10 and the pinnacle of military profession?

[chuck]

It's also interesting that while both Clark and McCain attended the National War College, in the area of citations McCain leads Clark by two.

In the area of being trusted with ever greater responsibilities, Clark leads McCain by 5 grades of promotion.

And don't give me the crap about MaCain leaving the navy in order to serve in congress. He left the Navy because he was stuck in dead end jobs and deemed not suitable for further promotion beyond Captain.

[winstonshu]

from the well-known bastion of conservative thought, the nytimes...

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/us/po ... ref=slogin

re: mccain not being promotable to be admiral.

draw your own conclusions from the first paragraph.

[Werner]

With all the bashing of McCain's military service that the left is conducting I would make a campaign ad using lines from his numerous citations, especially the one discussing his leadership role while a POW. That would shut up morons like Wesley Clark who says being shot down does not qualify him to be president.

Is it because of MaCain's leadership ability that he had to leave the Navy as an O-6 with no prospect of advancement?

Is it because Wesley Clark was a Moron that he advance all the way to O-10 and the pinnacle of military profession?

Gee, I don't know. Let's ask Secretary of defense Cohen what his reason for relieving Clark from command and releasing him from active duty before his retirement date. In the civilian sector that's called "being fired". By the very administration which groomed him.

Face it Chuck, Clark was fired for incompetence of command, a command he may never have attained without previously cooperating with the Waco debacle. He rose in the ranks because of his political reliability, not his military acumen.

As far as McCain is concerned, I don't think an honorable retirement as a senior captain after 25 years of service is a disgrace. Let's remember, at the date of his retirement the Navy was at a low Carter ebb, and promotion to admiral requires he take a seagoing command as commander of a ship. The chances of doing that with his severe and permanent injuries may just not have been there.

Chuck, you are applying Chuck math again O6 to O10 is 4 grades. Promotions beyond O6, which require Presidential initiation and Congressional approval are by definition political advancements as much as an indication of his military acumen.

[Werner]

Chuck, remember this 11 May, 2001 comment by Clark's former superior, General Hugh Shelton?

When at a forum in September, retired Gen. Hugh Shelton was asked if he would support retired Gen. Wesley Clark for president, Shelton, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, quickly took a drink of water. "That question makes me wish it were vodka," Shelton said. "I've known Wes for a long time. I will tell you the reason he came out of Europe early had to do with integrity and character issues, things that are very near and dear to my heart. I'm not going to say whether I'm a Republican or a Democrat. I'll just say Wes won't get my vote."

On November 6, 2001 retired Gen. Norman Schwarzkopf appeared on CNBC's Capital Report, hosted by Gloria Borger and Alan Murray, who asked him what he thought of Clark. "I think the greatest condemnation against him . . . came from the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff when he was a NATO commander. I mean, he was fired as a NATO commander," Schwarzkopf replied, "and when Hugh Shelton said he was fired because of matters of character and integrity, that is a very, very damning statement.

I think General Shelton has said about all that needs to be said about Clark.

[pingjockey]

With all the bashing of McCain's military service that the left is conducting ...

The Left learned from the Right. Remember it was the Bush campaign that started bashing McCain's service record 8 years ago. And then they did it again 4 years ago with Kerry. If there's anyone guilty of putting down a veteran's service for political gain it's the Right. They've written the book on it. Hopefully the Left won't stoop so low as to use all of their tricks.

Actually it was the same men that John Kerry served with in Vietnam that did the bashing of his service in Vietnam. The right got on his case about coming home and speaking ill of his comrades still fighting in theater.

[Werner]

Don't get me started with Kerry and the Swiftvets. Let's remember Kerry's career is built on the after action reports for his six weeks of combat in Vietnam. The first thing Kerry did on arriving in the unit is maneuver himself into the position to write those reports for the unit. Therefore, Kerry's entire record is something written by himself, signed largely without review by his superiors and forwarded up the chain of command. When his colleagues had an opportunity to see the record much later, they were outraged and began the campaign to correct the infamous Kerry history.

At a time when others were refusing Purple Hearts so they could stay in country longer, one of Kerry's Purple Hearts is for a wound treated "with bactene and a band-aid."

[pingjockey]

With all the bashing of McCain's military service that the left is conducting I would make a campaign ad using lines from his numerous citations, especially the one discussing his leadership role while a POW. That would shut up morons like Wesley Clark who says being shot down does not qualify him to be president.

Is it because of MaCain's leadership ability that he had to leave the Navy as an O-6 with no prospect of advancement?

Is it because Wesley Clark was a Moron that he advance all the way to O-10 and the pinnacle of military profession?

Seems to me that McCain turned down the opportunity to become an admiral to run for Congress. Secondly, just because someone doesn't make admiral doesn't mean they are not a great leader. In my 20 years of naval service I served with many officers who were great leaders but retired at O-5 or O-6. Making admiral has as much to do with politics as leadership. I find it insulting that you would think just because someone didn't make admiral that they are somehow lacking in leadership ability. You don't make O-6 or get command of a squadron without having leadership skills.
Clark is a moron because he thought that John Kerry's military service qualified him to be president, yet John McCains more distinguished service does not. He is a moron for belittling a fellow military man's service to his country, when he himself was relieved of command for incompetence.

[Werner]

We have to remember McCain returned from Vietnam and was given the status of "permanent disability". He may have been physically unable to attend the duties of the captain of a warship, a requirement for promotion to admiral. He cannot, after all, raise his arms past his waist and has a broken back which was untreated while he was a prisoner.

McCain may have elected to retire at captain in order to save the service the embarrassment of having to deal with the issue of further promotions. This in itself would be a noble and heroic act.

[winstonshu]

per the NYTimes,

WASHINGTON � At a meeting in his Pentagon office in early 1981, Secretary of the Navy John F. Lehman told Capt. John S. McCain III that he was about to attain his life ambition: becoming an admiral.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/30/us/po ... ref=slogin

[Gerarddm]

That referenced NY Time article puts post paid to Werner's observations.

a) He was offered a star. He turned it down to become a politician.
b) Whatever the extent of his injuries, he certainly could raise at least one arm above his waist at least back in '73, because there's a photo of him waving, hand above shoulder height.

I don't know what the Navy's physical requirements are for higher command, but I can tell you that to command a DDG you don't have to be a paragon of fitness. I forget which one now, but one of the Burkes had as her first captain a noticeably overweight woman. Photo at NavHist, IIRC.

[winstonshu]

That referenced NY Time article puts post paid to Werner's observations.

a) He was offered a star. He turned it down to become a politician.
b) Whatever the extent of his injuries, he certainly could raise at least one arm above his waist at least back in '73, because there's a photo of him waving, hand above shoulder height.

I don't know what the Navy's physical requirements are for higher command, but I can tell you that to command a DDG you don't have to be a paragon of fitness. I forget which one now, but one of the Burkes had as her first captain a noticeably overweight woman. Photo at NavHist, IIRC.

it also puts paid to the insulting insinuations that mccain was unfit or unpromotable or whatever the word you guys choose to use to admiral.

[Werner]

May I have notice of the phrase "post paid"?