Calling all Borodino (Бородино) class (Tsushima 1905) fans

Ship Model Gallery · Post by **MartinJQuinn** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 1:27 pm

It seems that I've been bitten by the Borodino-class bug!! After picking up the Zvezda 1/350 Orel and the White Ensign Borodino-class photo-etch for this class, I'm hooked! I've already put the hull together, filled and sanded the seams, put on a coat of primer and dry fit the decks, as seen in this picture (ISW USS Illinois in the background). At this point, I'm trying to gather information about the ship before I get any farther along - I also want to finish the Illinois before really delving into this project.

The model is decent, albiet the plastic is a little thick. The overall quality reminds me of Heller or later Airfix kits. I can't speak for the accuracy of the model, because I don't know much about this class of ships. The photo-etch is outstanding. I haven't seen the GMM set, so I can't compare the two, but the WEM set has all sorts of goodies on it, which should really bring the kit to life.

Couple of questions: It looks like what I can see in pictures, these ships were REALLY black. What paints are folks using on theirs? Additionally, the instructions call for the steel decks to be "Sea Blue". Does anyone know if that is accurate? I see Jim Baumann painted the decks of his 1/700 Borodino a reddish linoleum color. What recommendations does anyone have for the underwater hull color? Was it red or green? Was there a boot stripe?

Hopefully someone else is building this kit too. If so, post your progress pics here. Look forward to further discussion on these "bulldog-ugly" class of ships.

Dino Carancini · Post by **Dino Carancini** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 2:25 pm

Hi Martin,
according with the book "Tsushima" by Frank Thies it seems that russians predrednought of that era were absolutely black, anyway looking at photos they shows heavy signs of weathering, so maybe it will be better to start with a very dark flat grey to be able to apply some black oil washing after the first hand.

Just my though, and good luck with your Borodino, I love Russians predreadnought, but I've still an huge stack of Rn and Regia Marina models to be built before to start with them

Dino

Jefgte · Post by **Jefgte** » Tue Nov 21, 2006 5:35 pm

These Battleships are looking well and had a glorious history.
During Tsushima, they suffered very great damages during the 3 first phases of the battle.
Kniaz Suvarov
Borodino
Alexander III
sunk at about the same moment 7.20pm
Nearly all of their crew were lost.

After 5 hours of battle, the Suvarov without funnels, masts & uperworks completly destroyed, making again about 10kts, engage the torpedo boats with only a 3" gun...

These Battleships had a very good concept, very hard building & their crew a glorious end.

Jef

Devin · Post by **Devin** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 10:54 am

Martin,

Whenever I need to use black on a warship, I go with a really dark gray. I have used the MM Interior Black, tire black, Panzer Gray, etc. I've use these combos on Civil War ironclads and it looks fairly convincing.

-Devin
p.s. When do you find time to build all these freakin' models?

Rob · Post by **Rob** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:28 am

Martin,

I would go with Tyre Black (WEM make it) with shading of either Paynes grey or Lamp black.

No boot strip on them.

I would go with a reddish-brown for the steel decks, as for the anit-fouling no idea. I'll see if I've got any reference on that.

Be careful what you are getting into. Once you start on predreadnoughts, you won't want to stop. Sadly, I know that to be true, must have built about 30 of 'em!

Cheers,

Rob Kernaghan

Ship Model Gallery · Post by **MartinJQuinn** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 11:45 am

Rob wrote:Martin,

I would go with Tyre Black (WEM make it) with shading of either Paynes grey or Lamp black.

No boot strip on them.

I would go with a reddish-brown for the steel decks, as for the anit-fouling no idea. I'll see if I've got any reference on that.

Be careful what you are getting into. Once you start on predreadnoughts, you won't want to stop. Sadly, I know that to be true, must have built about 30 of 'em!

Cheers,

Rob Kernaghan

Yes, I can see I'm getting afflicted with the disease already...I picked up a couple more ISW pre-dreadnoughts (Ohio and Kearsarge) at the last IPMS show I went too!

Thanks for the tip on the Tyre Black, I was going to order some PE from WEM today, I'll include the paint now too.

Devin wrote:Martin,

Whenever I need to use black on a warship, I go with a really dark gray. I have used the MM Interior Black, tire black, Panzer Gray, etc. I've use these combos on Civil War ironclads and it looks fairly convincing.

-Devin
p.s. When do you find time to build all these freakin' models?

You don't see any of them actually finished, do you?

As for finding time...I build at work, during my lunch. I have an office, so I close the door and work for about 45 to an hour.

PetrOs · Post by **PetrOs** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 1:55 pm

Well, what I know from russian sources, all second pacific squadron ships were black with red hull bottom.

See the painting scheme at:
http://tsushima.org.ru/tth_plan_orel_01.htm
http://tsushima.org.ru/tth_plan_suvorov_01.htm

And a few plans are available on that page (links at bottom, as page is in russian)
http://tsushima.org.ru/tth_russ_orel.htm

A few photos of her:
Orel during launch and 2nd Squadron
http://tsushima.org.ru/foto_russ_orel_do.htm

Orel - japanese photos of her directly after capture, showing battle damage
http://tsushima.org.ru/foto_russ_orel_posle.htm

Orel as japanese Iwami
http://tsushima.org.ru/fotoarhiv/russia ... _ivami.htm

Alexander III in Baltic sea
http://tsushima.org.ru/foto_russ_aleksandr3.htm

Suvorov before the voyage:
http://tsushima.org.ru/foto_russ_suvorov.htm

Have fun!

If you'll need help with russian, dont hestitate to ask me ;o)

Cheers,
Petr

Ship Model Gallery · Post by **MartinJQuinn** » Wed Nov 22, 2006 3:55 pm

Thanks for the links Petr....they should keep me busy for a while!

Frank Spahr · Post by **Frank Spahr** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 2:37 pm

Well,

I�ve got nearly all the plans I need, the WEM set should be in the mail soon, now for the remaining color questions:

So it�s red bottom, no boot topping, black hull, reddish-brown steel decks, yellow funnels with black tops. So far so good.

What about the wood decks? I somewhere heard they carried extra coal supplies on the open decks during the trip around the world. That must have been a fine mess and add a lot to the hull streaking. How would you paint those decks if you depicted the model prior to the battle?

Upon sailing, the ships were fairly new and should have been in a clean overall state, with light tan decks, I�d suppose.

Any other suggestions?

Curious

Frank

PetrOs · Post by **PetrOs** » Sat Dec 16, 2006 6:38 pm

Well, I think I'll check my books - Im not sure whether the ships were repainted in Camranh or not. If yes, they would look rather clean during Tsushima, but if not repaired they would look like a mess....

I would give the deck heavy drybrushing and washing, especially around the coal ports...

Tom L. · Post by **Tom L.** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:28 pm

Immediate post-Tsushima photos of Orel show her to have been uhm, ahh, crusty around the waterline.
Whether or not that "crust" was purely dried salt water, or other filth, it shows up as a very light color, and is present on all the 2nd Pacific Squadron survivor photos I've seen.

PetrOs · Post by **PetrOs** » Sun Dec 17, 2006 12:49 pm

Tom L. wrote:Immediate post-Tsushima photos of Orel show her to have been uhm, ahh, crusty around the waterline.
Whether or not that "crust" was purely dried salt water, or other filth, it shows up as a very light color, and is present on all the 2nd Pacific Squadron survivor photos I've seen.

Yeah, I also checked and seems they did no repainting in Camranh.. just a small cleanup.. So heavy weathering sounds to be right

Tinedge · Post by **Tinedge** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 3:20 pm

Hi Folks
I m new to the forum..... so hi to all.
I too am a fan of these pre-dreanaught battleships

Anyway I am considering building "Borodino" in 72nd scale so I need a couple of things to get started.....

1stly...... plans, I've located some larger scale plans on modelyard.narod.ru are they any good....or are there an other sources?

2ndly.......... a plastic model which I can build too get a feel for the ship. I have in mind the Zevzda "OREL" or "KNYAZ SUVOROV" which ship would be closest to Borodino and what are the differences?

3rdly......If I am going to build it I might as well get a "brass etch kit" for detailing, I think the Zevzda kit must be newer as I cant find any listing or it. I know White Ensign have set for another maker but in the same scale, would this be suitable?

4thly....pictures/referance material are there any good books easily accessable out there on this class of battleship .

Thanks for the hints and links already mentioned on this thread.
Regards From "Down Under" Australia ....... Mike

PetrOs · Post by **PetrOs** » Sat Mar 03, 2007 4:07 pm

1st
I dont know the plans of the modelyard.narod.ru ...
However, I can give you the electronic very detailed (1:100) plans for Tsesarewitsch, which was a prototype for Borodino class. They are also freely available at navarin.ru (88 A4 size pages, or 5 A0 size pages). At navarin you can also buy a 1:200 plans for Borodino

You can use Eastern Express Borodino or Suvorov, or Zvezda's Suvorov or Orel. Im not sure whether the kits are related, but they appeared about the same time...

PE - i think yes, it would be suitable.

Tinedge · Post by **Tinedge** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:21 am

Hi PetrOs

Thanks for the advice it certainly helps...my only problem is a I can't read Russian or speak it, so I am at langauge disadvantage when browsing the site "navarin" which is totally Russian. No pics even to give you hints!!!!

Is it possible to include a link to the "200 scale Borodino plans" from the site so I can "check them out".

As well many thanks for the generous offer with the plans "Tsesarewitsch"
I will be doing some homework on this vessel. I will get back to you. To me this is one of the great advantages of Forum helping builders come in contact with other builders on the other side of the world!
Regards & Many thanks .......Mike from Australia

PetrOs · Post by **PetrOs** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:30 am

Hey

I checked my books and eBooks, and found 2 russian-language books regarding Borodino Class, one in paper form, and 1 scan, done by me when I moved from Russia to Germany. One from Gribovski, one from Melnikov. Both with many photos, plans, etc. I can send you the scans, if you drop me a PM.

PetrOs · Post by **PetrOs** » Sun Mar 04, 2007 5:33 am

And I forgot the link to the Borodino plan set at navarin
http://www.navarin.ru/product_info.php/products_id/124

Publisher is Garmashev, whom I used to talk to a few years ago, and he made a good impression on me, as a man doing tough research...

Tinedge · Post by **Tinedge** » Tue Mar 06, 2007 8:00 pm

Hi PetrOs
Just checking you got my details via PM....any problems just let me know.
Thanks for all your assistance.
Regards from Australia
Mike

Dmitry Antonov · Post by **Dmitry Antonov** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 4:59 am

Hi,
The book by Gribovsky has the most accurate plans of Borodino (plan and a coloured profile on the cover, as well as several cross-sections).
The book by Melnikov contains a set of plans of Orel.
Both ships have been built by the same yard, so they were close in appearance. Nevertheless, they have several key differencies - form of stem, anchor shelves, funnel caps and deckhouses on spardeck - 2 at Borodino an 1 at Orel.
Check pics at navsource.narod.ru
Please keep in mind, that Garmashev has published two sets of plans of Borodino - the first one is incorrect and represents a "hybrid" of Borodino and Orel, the second one is labeled as "corrected" but I have not seen it by myself.
Cheers,
Dmitry

Dmitry Antonov · Post by **Dmitry Antonov** » Thu Mar 22, 2007 5:20 am

Borodino:
http://navsource.narod.ru/photos/01/027/index.html