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PostPosted: Thu Jul 04, 2019 11:30 am 
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Since last weekend I have the kit too, and my objective is to turn it into HMS Suffolk. So here are my first results at the conversion.
Attachment:
IMAG2527red.jpg
IMAG2527red.jpg [ 273.44 KiB | Viewed 1529 times ]

The quarterdeck cut down was carried out much as I had envisaged before. The main hurdle is, after you have cut away the portions of the hull, to graft in a new rim to receive the modified quarterdeck. This is a tedious task, with knife, chisel and file, and must be carried out with care to have a good sit of the deck.
Attachment:
IMAG2528red.jpg
IMAG2528red.jpg [ 308.81 KiB | Viewed 1529 times ]

The shelterdeck also needs to be modified considerably, with filling in a large portion on either side, and with removal of the hashed area. Note the frame numbers I pencilled in as a reference. In fact I am delighted with the accuracy of the Trumpeter kit, as everything comes very close to where I expected it to be, based on the scanty, but seemingly accurate drawings from Alan Raven/John Roberts in their Man o'War 1 booklet on the County class.
Attachment:
IMAG2524red.jpg
IMAG2524red.jpg [ 281.47 KiB | Viewed 1529 times ]

Next I started also on the relocated 4" gun locations. These 4" gun turrets themselves need to be modified into single barreled versions: according to Raven/Roberts these were unique to Suffolk, and they provide a detailed drawing of these as well.
Attachment:
Suffolk 4 inch HA 001.jpg
Suffolk 4 inch HA 001.jpg [ 227.79 KiB | Viewed 1529 times ]

Below the shelterdeck the 4" gun turrets need 4.8mm tube foundation pillars, these are missed by Trumpeter entirely and will need to be added to any model. Also under the pom-pom platforms the pillars need to be fatter (5.5 mm) and extended to the deck below.

Well, on to the next step, modifying of all the bridge platforms!

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 08, 2019 11:43 am 
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As initially modified, SUFFOLK carried two single shielded 4" HA Mk XX mountings (the forward pair) and two twin 4" HA Mk XIX mountings.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 6:55 am 
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tjstoneman wrote:
As initially modified, SUFFOLK carried two single shielded 4" HA Mk XX mountings (the forward pair) and two twin 4" HA Mk XIX mountings.

Thanks for the info!

As my focus period will be the Bismarck episode, I think that even these two singe Mk XX mountings had been replaced by double Mk XIX at that time. Any further notes on that?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 09, 2019 8:10 am 
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According to Alan Raven & John Roberts British Cruisers of World War Two (Arms & Armour Press, 1980), SUFFOLK's single 4" mountings were replaced by twins during her repairs after Operation Duck, which were completed in February 1941. She also had four single 20mm Oerlikons fitted, and RDF Types 279 and 285 fitted, during these repairs.


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 2:22 am 
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tjstoneman wrote:
According to Alan Raven & John Roberts British Cruisers of World War Two (Arms & Armour Press, 1980), SUFFOLK's single 4" mountings were replaced by twins during her repairs after Operation Duck, which were completed in February 1941. She also had four single 20mm Oerlikons fitted, and RDF Types 279 and 285 fitted, during these repairs.

Yes, I found that too. Thanks tjstoneman! I will leave the 4" doubles as they are, but in the different locations I have already prepared. Now trying to find where the single 20mm Oerlikons have to be located.
I made progress modifying the bridge platforms too. The upper director platform will get some side bulges. As everything is still unpainted you can see very well what was retained from the kit and where the changes needed to be made. You see also the new pillars where the boat cranes will sit on. Any comments are welcome!
Attachment:
IMAG2530reduced.jpg
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I started also working on the different disposition of the ship's boats, according to the Man o'War booklet from Raven/Roberts I will need a 32' gig and two 35' FMBs, I have some spares from Admiralty Model works for that.

A question: does anyone have a good closeup photo of the ship's whistles on the forward funnel? Not necessarily the Suffolk. On Cornwall they weren't fitted there, but most other Counties did have them.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 10, 2019 5:31 am 
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Ships of the Kent sub-group were designed with shorter funnels, and some completed for trials with this configuration; thus their sirens were fitted just below what was then the level of the funnel top (ie roughly level with the compass platform). On four of the ships (BERWICK, CORNWALL, CUMBERLAND and KENT), the sirens remained there when the funnels were raised to reduce the effects of funnel-smoke on command and control positions. SUFFOLK and the two Australian ships had sirens just below the top of their taller funnels.

Not sure about a close-up photo, but CORNWALL's sirens are visible in the first photo of Brett's post earlier in this thread (4 June). Norman Friedman British Cruisers: Two World Wars and After (Barnsley: Pen & Sword Books, 2010) includes a number of pictures which show various cruisers' sirens at reasonable resolution, including one of CRONWALL (p102).


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 1:22 pm 
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Further to the Suffolk: I got convinced that by May 1941 the shelters for the 4" gun crews were fitted. I saw no other option but to make these from scratch, eyeballing their dimensions and details. If anybody can give comments to improve them these are welcome!
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IMAG2531reduced.jpg
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PostPosted: Fri Jul 12, 2019 6:59 pm 
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do you have or access to "Man of War 1 County Class Cruiser" as appears your boat shelter is too deep?


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:17 am 
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DavidP wrote:
do you have or access to "Man of War 1 County Class Cruiser" as appears your boat shelter is too deep?

Well, yes I have. What do you exactly mean by 'deep'? I think you mean the height?

And according to that source that is just right. What might be confusing, on the large 'centerfold' drawing you see the shutters in front of the shelter too, those are less tall. Also confusing, on the top views the shelters are not shown at all. So the width of these I had to estimate.

Btw, why do you call it a 'boat' shelter? I thought these shelters were meant for the gun crews to protect them against air attacks, and also against the weather on the harsh nordic convoy escort duties.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 12:55 pm 
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Maarten, look at page 44 in that book as it shows an above view of the Cumberland showing those two shelters. my depth is not your height as I would have said height, I'm talking about the width of the shelters from the side of the ship towards the center as yours seems to me to be too wide & the ship side shelter face having too sharp of an angle. can't remember where I got "boat shelter" from as I had a number of apps open looking for info on the Suffolk.


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 1:48 pm 
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Maarten Schönfeld wrote:
DavidP wrote:
do you have or access to "Man of War 1 County Class Cruiser" as appears your boat shelter is too deep?

Well, yes I have. What do you exactly mean by 'deep'? I think you mean the height?

And according to that source that is just right. What might be confusing, on the large 'centerfold' drawing you see the shutters in front of the shelter too, those are less tall. Also confusing, on the top views the shelters are not shown at all. So the width of these I had to estimate.

Btw, why do you call it a 'boat' shelter? I thought these shelters were meant for the gun crews to protect them against air attacks, and also against the weather on the harsh nordic convoy escort duties.


It looks great.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 13, 2019 6:29 pm 
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Maarten, you have done a good scratchbuild, I cannot comment on your dimensions.
Do you have any images of Suffolk`s shelters on the inward side?
Other than subtle mods to the roofing and perhaps slightly different dimensions it is my understanding that these structures were pretty much standard, a free standing roof with outer armour over a large container housing 4" ready use lockers and stowage for gunners PPE.

Mods may have been done later to enclose the sides? these images show your roofing appears correct, but the second shot indicates that the roof may have been free standing as that of Shropshire.


Attachments:
SUFFOLK 1.jpg
SUFFOLK 1.jpg [ 225.39 KiB | Viewed 1741 times ]
SUFFOLK 2.jpg
SUFFOLK 2.jpg [ 153.37 KiB | Viewed 1741 times ]
SHROPSHIRE.jpg
SHROPSHIRE.jpg [ 147.12 KiB | Viewed 1741 times ]
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:07 am 
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Thank you all for your help and comments, DavidP, Strategos Augustus and Brett Morrow!

I had seen that overhead picture of Cumberland (page 42), but decided the shelters look different from those on Suffolk, indeed narrower in top view as David points out. Also, the shields overhanging the 4" turrets seem to be much larger than Suffolk's.

That image from Suffolk1 Brett has sent had given me a clue where the inner rim should be: at about the same distance from the centerline as the outside of the quad Pom-pom. Also, in this view the top surface of the shelter seems to be wider than those from Cumberland. As for the angle of the outside shield you could be right, I have tried to estimate that from the same picture.

Also this picture supported my estimations.
Attachment:
large_000000 (15).jpg
large_000000 (15).jpg [ 47.25 KiB | Viewed 1708 times ]


About the inboard side of the shelter I'm rather in the dark, but you could be right it should be an open structure. Trumpeter's Belfast seems to suggest that too. Well, I have made them easily removable and I could adapt them as required to give them open inside faces. Shropshire's shelters are clearly open indeed, although much detail can't be seen on this still.

Again thanks for all the help!

I started also on adapting the shields around the Pom-pom platforms: as can be seen on Bretts's image these aren't conical as in the kit, but gutters wit a rounded bottom and internal reinforcements. Airfix' Suffolk had suggested these as a ribbed rim. Another nice scratch item to be made.

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 6:51 am 
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In the previous round I mentioned the shields around the Quad Pom-pom platforms. This is what I managed to make of that.
I also added the bulwarks around the Lower Bridge level (instead of railings in the Cornwall). Note I also deleted one of the searchlight pedestals and relocated the other one. Again all according to the Raven/Roberts drawings.

I'm considering to alter the crew shelters to have an open backside, similar to those in the Belfast kit. That will leave part of the back wall standing, providing a logical place to put the ready ammo lockers against. Good idea?

Attachment:
IMAG2534reduced.jpg
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 11:38 am 
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Here are some photos of a model of Suffolk I completed a few years ago in 1/96, if this is any help with your details. Depicted as close as I could get to May 1941. I based this on the drawings in the Raven & Roberts "British Cruisers of WW2", I think has a good line drawing in addition to that in the man o' war book. Also used photos from those books and the imperial war museum online photo collections. This also shows the higher position of the sirens on the forward funnels (distinguishing her from Cumberland).

One notable error in the model is that the bridge was covered by this time, I haven't been able to find good drawings of this modification though. The photo is also missing the guardrails which have now been added.

Hope this is of help,

James


Attachments:
HMS Suffolk 1.jpg
HMS Suffolk 1.jpg [ 234.69 KiB | Viewed 1635 times ]
HMS Suffolk 2.jpg
HMS Suffolk 2.jpg [ 165.59 KiB | Viewed 1635 times ]
Boat deck.jpg
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PostPosted: Sun Jul 14, 2019 2:31 pm 
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suffolk1928 wrote:
Here are some photos of a model of Suffolk I completed a few years ago in 1/96, if this is any help with your details. Depicted as close as I could get to May 1941. I based this on the drawings in the Raven & Roberts "British Cruisers of WW2", I think has a good line drawing in addition to that in the man o' war book. Also used photos from those books and the imperial war museum online photo collections. This also shows the higher position of the sirens on the forward funnels (distinguishing her from Cumberland).

One notable error in the model is that the bridge was covered by this time, I haven't been able to find good drawings of this modification though. The photo is also missing the guardrails which have now been added.

Hope this is of help,

James

Hi James,

Thank you for these photos! I wish you had more of them, they are really a great help! I indeed use also that book 'British Cruisers of WW2', the drawing of Suffolk therein is apparently an earlier version of the drawing than in 'Man o'War 1', but they are clearly related.

I agree that the bridge was covered by that time, apparently is was covered already a year earlier at the time of Operation Duck, as can be seen in this front view.
Attachment:
hms-suffolk-operation Duck.jpg
hms-suffolk-operation Duck.jpg [ 146.38 KiB | Viewed 1624 times ]

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 11:30 am 
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I managed to create something representing the whistle platforms and the tyfon sirenes.
Attachment:
IMAG2538reduced.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 12:37 pm 
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Here are a few more photos of the model in later stages of construction - I've now realised I've never actually taken proper photos of the finished model!

There is a build log here: http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/index.php?topic=172.0

I think that funnel platform looks right!

The Captain's report on the Bismarck action is online somewhere (possibly on Hood association website), this refers to the bridge being covered but the structure being too weak and being damaged by the ships 8 inch gun blast - so may have been revised again.

The camouflage is based on Raven's warship perspective & photos - I think that the pattern was changed a few times, becoming progressively simpler each time.

Re: an earlier comment - I have done the 4 inch gun crew shelters with open backs, as on HMS Belfast

James


Attachments:
Suffolk 3.jpg
Suffolk 3.jpg [ 187.7 KiB | Viewed 1542 times ]
Suffolk 4.jpg
Suffolk 4.jpg [ 182.42 KiB | Viewed 1542 times ]
Suffolk 5.jpg
Suffolk 5.jpg [ 147.15 KiB | Viewed 1542 times ]
Suffolk 6.jpg
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Suffolk 8.jpg
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PostPosted: Mon Jul 15, 2019 2:44 pm 
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suffolk1928 wrote:
Here are a few more photos of the model in later stages of construction - I've now realised I've never actually taken proper photos of the finished model!

There is a build log here: http://www.deansmarine.co.uk/index.php?topic=172.0

I think that funnel platform looks right!

The Captain's report on the Bismarck action is online somewhere (possibly on Hood association website), this refers to the bridge being covered but the structure being too weak and being damaged by the ships 8 inch gun blast - so may have been revised again.

The camouflage is based on Raven's warship perspective & photos - I think that the pattern was changed a few times, becoming progressively simpler each time.

Re: an earlier comment - I have done the 4 inch gun crew shelters with open backs, as on HMS Belfast

James


I'm guessing you omitted the hand rails to make handling it easier?

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 16, 2019 6:58 am 
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Maarten, great build on your Suffolk. What template did you use to scratch the upper area of the bridge (It's pretty much square)?

James, what a beautiful big scale Suffolk. Looks very distinctive in the camo scheme.

I've drilled out my lower portholes and am figuring out how to delete the belt armour...


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