HMS Victory and Le Redoutable at Trafalgar (1/300)

[Iceman 29]

Indeed, it's more like this.



But it seems that the two-hoist system is sometimes used on 36-pound guns.

https://forummarine-forumactif-com.tran ... r_pto=wapp















24 and 12 canons

Bernard Huc


https://youtu.be/1ckViyihO34


Allan16, work in progress.


FredP, Hermione replica.

[JIM BAUMANN]

...... simply amazing the information that is detailed ....and via the internet ( and iceman!) readily available

it does appear that all bases were covered by constructors and designers of the gun carriage,
the various hauling rings so that tackles could be applied at oblique angles also-

-ie to strap the gun to be immovable in heavy weather and rolling ....
The strapping up and the way the breech line was laid to remove slack
simples--but clever

I must confess that I had previously not given the various scenarios any thought
most interesting



JIm B

[wefalck]

Well, you want to make sure that half a ton or more of cast iron does not roll around unconstrained - once it's moving out of control, a gun is very difficult to rope in again without risking your limbs or more.

Keeping all the discussions in mind, I somehow have also the feeling the illustration 'The Hero of Trafalgar' above is not entirely realistic and to the rules.

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

Well, you want to make sure that half a ton or more of cast iron does not roll around unconstrained - once it's moving out of control, a gun is very difficult to rope in again without risking your limbs or more...

Yes... one wants to avoid the proverbial 'loose cannon.'

[marijn van gils]

Thank you very much Pascal! That is exactly the info I needed!


Unfortunately I was very stupid: in my impatience I went ahead with my 'best guess' before checking back here and attached the training tackles at one of the corners of the carriages.


Anyway, another valuable lesson learned...
Let's see if I can do some Dafi-esque surgery...

[Martocticvs]

I was completely unaware that French practice for the 'breach' ropes differed so much from the British. Interesting variation. From an engineer's point of view, I prefer the British version, since it is restraining the thing that needs restraining, rather than the thing merely holding the thing needing the restraining, but intersting nonetheless!

And as ever, fantastic work on this wonderful project!

[TomRigg17]

Would the training tackles (also used to run the cannon out?) be detached from the carriage prior to firing?
I can see them getting jammed pretty easily and snapping the rope.
I have used a block and tackle on numerous occasions (albeit some years ago) and remember the amount of times I'd have to stop pulling (extending) the block out and straighten the rope unless I could keep a little tension on the tail end.
Tom

[wefalck]

The friction in the tackles was used as recoil breaks to my knowledge, to reduce the jerk on the breaching ropes.

It would be also difficult and dangerous to hook the tackle back to control the gun, when the ship was rolling and pitching.

Overall, modern OSH officers would through their arms up in the air in horror, when they see how guns where handled before slide-mount came into general use from around the middle of the 19th century on. A lot of the operations had to be 'dynamic' in the sense that the crew had to jump and manipulate things while the gun was moving with little control only.

[Martocticvs]

Not to mention no protective footwear! In fact, just no footwear at all!

[marijn van gils]

Indeed! There were many safety rules to protect the ship as a whole (to prevent fire or accidental explosion), not so much for indivisual health and safety...

I was completely unaware that French practice for the 'breach' ropes differed so much from the British. Interesting variation. From an engineer's point of view, I prefer the British version, since it is restraining the thing that needs restraining, rather than the thing merely holding the thing needing the restraining, but intersting nonetheless!

I agree! But from a modeller viewpoint, I prefer the much easier French style...



Now, the modelling of those tackles.

For the blocks, I used 0,3mm discs, punched from 0,13mm plastic sheet. The rope is 0,05mm tinned copper wire.



1: The distance needed between the two blocks is measured, and a piece of copper wire bent at that distance. The other end is left long. Holding it by that end (a convenient handle), the corner of the bend is dipped in superglue and touched to one of the �blocks�, gluing it in place.

2: Now the short end of the wire is dipped in glue and touched to the second �block�.

3: A little superglue is applied to the top of both blocks, and a straight piece of wire placed over the centre of them.

4: Now, a third, small, piece of wire is glued between the blocks. Finally, a nice thick drop of superglue is added to both blocks, making sure the wires will stay put and thickening and rounding the blocks.

Next, I gave them a basecoat of Humbrol matt 110:


I mimicked the ropes holding the blocks with black paint:


Finally, the end attaching to the hull side was bent upwards and cut short. This will provide some minimal surface for gluing.
The end attaching to the gun (right) was cut short too, and the loose end of the tackle rope was cut to the appropriate length.


The tackles were first superglued to the side of the hull only:


After letting the glue set for a minute, the tackles were carefully bent into place and the rear end superglued to the guns. Excess wire was cut away carefully:


After gluing the tackles on one side of the guns, of course I added them to the other side too:


Note that the �crooked� gun didn�t receive it�s tackles yet. I made and installed them in batches of the same size, and the position of that gun requires different distances between the blocks of the tackles.

[marijn van gils]

Now, those loose ends of the tackle ropes needed to be �draped� on the deck:


To help me with this, I cut a little groove in the end of a toothpick:


The groove was placed over the wire, and the toothpick rolled:


Rolling� rolling�


And the toothpick retracted:


Different shapes can be made in this way, and bends in different directions. It doesn�t need to be a coiled rope every time.

Now, I glued the wires to the deck. I couldn�t find a better way to do this than with superglue, but if anyone knows an easier way I would love to know because this was often tedious and frustrating, and not as clean as I would like.
A coat of matt varnish luckily hides all of the shiny glue spots.


And a pinwash and some highlighting renders the ropes more visible and gives them their final colour. It may look a bit over the top in these extreme close-ups, but without it the ropes would become nearly invisible to the naked eye, between all the figures and stuff that will still be added later.
I also highlighted the ropes in-between the blocks, giving them their final colour that distinguishes them from the blocks.

[marijn van gils]

And then those rear tackles�

I was too impatient to wait for the great info this forum never fails to produce, and I attached them to one of the corners of the carriages:


Wrong!
So I carefully detached the ends that were glued to the carriages, bent it a little and re-attached to the centre of the carriages. Much better!


The rear tackle of the �crooked� gun was too short to span the extra distance to the centre of the carriage, so I decided to convert it into an unhooked tackle.
I quite like this! In hindsight, I should have done a couple more like this! Something to remember for the decks above�

And some extra shadows and highlights:


And an overview of the waist area of Redoutable, with guns and their rigging in place:

[wefalck]

What I am missing are the servings on those ropes ... just kidding

I have to add a second 'WOW' to my first 'WOW' in an earlier post.

The grooved toothpick to arrange the loose ends of the ropes is a good idea. I have used tweezers for the purpose, but there is the risk that one scratches the surface. The toothpick is much better.

I don't like working with CA glue, because that stuff always seems to dry on me in the bottle or the nozzle, I prefer fast-drying varnish (Zaponlack in Germany), also because it can be loosened again with a drop of acetone. Incidentally, a light brush with acetone seems to take away much of the 'shine'. Otherwise, sprayed matt varnish takes care of that.

I may have accentuated the ropes on the deck with some dark pastel powder, rather than a washing. That seems to also pull together a lot of details. But it needs to be applied after the last matt varnish, because otherwise it just turns into a wash.

[EJFoeth]

There's no need to use brass wire for all the loose ends, so elastic rigging wire could be used, but, a) may be too thin (Uschi's ends at 0.03) and b) may be maddeningly elastic and refusing to stay rolled up?

[wefalck]

I personally would stay away from any elastic materials, as these are bound to crumble under the effect of UV light ...

[Maarten Sch�nfeld]

So I carefully detached the ends that were glued to the carriages, bent it a little and re-attached to the centre of the carriages. Much better!

Makes much more sense from an engineering perspective. Engineers are taught to avoid asymmetrical loads, as they place large strains on constructions, in this case the gun carriages. At least try to avoid them as much as possible, so a center tackle is absolutely preferred.

[SG1]

Excellent! I love your spaghetti-twirling technique!

https://media.giphy.com/media/v1.Y2lkPT ... -large.gif

Thank you for the tutorial, the rigging of the guns is just spectacular!

here's no need to use brass wire for all the loose ends, so elastic rigging wire could be used, but, a) may be too thin (Uschi's ends at 0.03) and b) may be maddeningly elastic and refusing to stay rolled up?

EJ, the Uschi elastic thread loses most of its elastic properties when soaked in Ca. I have discovered it when i dealt with the maiale breakwater ribbing. But I agree with you, keeping the elastic thread at bay before fixing it w Ca would be a nightmare.

[marijn van gils]

Thank you everyone!

Elastic thread is an interesting idea that I hadn't considered. It may lay curly and flat on the deck much more easily indeed. But then again, in my very limited experience with the stuff, it tends to curl up on itself when let loose so much that it may be a nuisance too. Conservation properties can be a consideration too, but when covered with matt varnish (to glue it in place) and paint I'm not too worried about that. But the flatness of the material could be too noticeable for this application? Maybe I should do a couple of experiments with it...

I prefer fast-drying varnish (Zaponlack in Germany), also because it can be loosened again with a drop of acetone. Incidentally, a light brush with acetone seems to take away much of the 'shine'. Otherwise, sprayed matt varnish takes care of that.

I have to find me some of that varnish! Mine dries quite fast but still too slow to keep to springy copper wire down.

I may have accentuated the ropes on the deck with some dark pastel powder, rather than a washing. That seems to also pull together a lot of details. But it needs to be applied after the last matt varnish, because otherwise it just turns into a wash.

That's a good technique too. But in this case I still have apply a lot of matt varnish: to glue buckets and other equipment in place, and to hide glue spots after supergluing the figures in place. Anyway, I try to avoid pastels and pigment powders on my models because they are so fragile to any liquid that touches the model afterwards.

Makes much more sense from an engineering perspective. Engineers are taught to avoid asymmetrical loads, as they place large strains on constructions, in this case the gun carriages. At least try to avoid them as much as possible, so a center tackle is absolutely preferred.

Yes, and the references show it too!
Some of the above drawings look like the were drawn by Boudriot, but they are not in the '74-gun ship', which shows only 36pd with two rear tackles, attached to the corners. I wish he would have included this style too, or at least the rigging of the smaller guns... Anyway, nothing is perfect and the 74 gun ship is a fantastic book(s) nonetheless! It could do with a better index however; I often find it difficult to relocate information in it.

[Rui Matos]

Hi Marijn

Toothpicks are the unsung heroes at our workbenches!
I also use them to glue the ropes/cables (simple or double intertwined copper wire) to the decks, but I coil the cables previously (tweesers + fingers) in diferent arrangements, press them with my thumb against a hard flat surface (so that they don't stick up in stupid positions) and then use a clipped toothpick to maintain the cables in place after applying a dropplet of CA glue to the deck (or raillings, if needed).
Of course, mine are not attached to gun carriages, like yours - that was a very neat trick!

This dio is going to be EPIC
(I don't know how many times I have said this)
Cheers
Rui

[TomRigg17]

could you pre-bend the wire and then attach it to the block?
So much easier to whizz it loosely around a paintbrush handle or similar.
Tom