1/700 Bretagne-1855 scratch The largest wooden wall warship

[marijn van gils]

No you are not!- go on ....-- weigh in ==>how would you have made the hull?

For the basic hull shape, I would probably not have used wood, but instead the technique I used on the plug for Redoutable's hull: a plastic bulkhead skeleton, filled in with epoxy putty. ( viewtopic.php?f=59&t=167367&start=100#p771620 ).
Both techniques have their advantages and disadvantages; I just happen to feel comfortable with that one.

In this scale, I may have done the gun ports the way you did with the PE ladderstock. But maybe I would try to incorporate square plastic tubing in the frame, before filling in the frame. A bit like the opening at the stern of this seatruck in my Amagi diorama:





But instead of one opening, entire rows of square tubing of course. The advantage would be that they can be glued very precisely at the same height before filling in the frame, or if needed at a slight sheer.

Pieter proposed something similar, but in bread-and-butter construction entirely in styrene. That would work too!
I had the opportunity to ask the builder of this model how he constructed the hull, and he told me he used that technique. It is in 1/300 scale though:


In the end, many ways lead to Rome I think, and a lot comes down to what mlaterials and techniques we are comfortable with.

[JIM BAUMANN]

So... after relentless sanding and filling and re-refilling and sanding it will shortly be time fro a guidecoat in white
and then black in the gunports .
And then establish the ports that I need to redo... in this patchwork of colours I can barely discern
ports squareness any more ( you were right wefalck ! ) square eyes...

I have a few suspects and I have sufficient port squaures to redo the condemned...
In all the sanding the bottom of the hull got a bit rounded-- cured with filler
to bring the hull side at waterline back to square

here are a few images of current status

[hypno7]

wow, that's a lot of work...

The most difficult part for me is always the consistency, and this looks consistent! A last sprayed on coat of primer would reveal any blemishes.

[JIM BAUMANN]

Thank you my friends for encouragement and insight in to the Van Gils method !

herewith recent works

checking with the real thing and pencil dotting all the stairwell apertures to be cut

The decking will be printed on 100 gsm photo paper
and will be glued down into the recess below the bulwarks
- with length of white styrene square section ensuring
a sharp and clean demarcation ' twixt the deck and white bulwarks

It never ceases to amaze me the amount of tumble-home these ships had-
-and also how tall the Bulwarks were!

I have been agonising how to render the hammocks when stowed

these big ships carried a lot of crew , 1170 of them!!

so the hammocks when stowed look like this;

and this, 3 rows of hammocks adjacent to each other is a Looooot of hammocks to make evenly and repeatable

Now then-- all these models are at anchor or static....

My model will be under full sail and steaming ( motor sailing !)



These ships had canvas covers that were pulled over the hammocks so that the stayed dry from spray and rain


here are some images posted by Tadeusz43 at modelshipworld- NRG forum
that illustrate this

the ships names are in the captions thank you Tadeusz43 !!

NOTE how high the bulwarks are !!! useful scale figure...

and indeed on the lovely image that hangs on our wall

it can be clearly seen they have covers--I rather like the grey canvas--....

any thoughts? anyone?

HAH...!! making the full rig actually compensates not having to make 1100 plus hammocks..!!

=============================================================================================================
=============================================================================================================


I am looking for my Bretagne model to have the kind of feel that this model of HMS Conqueror has

( only mine will be half the scale --- and I hope..... might be a bit 'edgier...(?) )

The model was entirely scratch built by John Prothero-Thomas in the 1990's in 1/384 scale
JPT was a very prolific scratch builder of a a wide variety of vessels- all in 1/384 scale
He passed away sadly in 2021 aged 93 RIP

here is a link my posting on MW .com from back in 2010 of some of his impressive models

viewtopic.php?f=12&t=39219


and gallery
http://www.modelwarships.com/features/m ... /index.htm

I was lucky to have met him a few times...

Being an proper old school purist.... he reckoned I was a heretic ( !! ) for often using kits as a starting point ....
and commercial photo-etching etc ..... (this was pre-3-D print-- ....what would he have model of THAT?!

But sportingly he DID concede that the repeatable precision of PE-- especially in 1/700 --was unlikely to be matched by analogue methods

His Conquere model below:

[wefalck]

Not sure what the question was, why are canvass covers grey? ... if they were really grey and this is not just because whoever coloured the lithograph thought they may be in the shadow, perhaps they were painted so, because the soot from the stacks would have turned white covers grey quickly - difficult to clean.

[Pieter]

Untreated canvas becomes grey when it's wet. So as long as Bretagne is in the port of Cherbourg or anywhere else on the NW coast of France it will be heavy and grey from either fog or rain water. Cherbourg has ' fog and light rain' in the weather forecast at this very moment. The alternative port for the period, Brest, has a massive 75 days of fog per year.

[wefalck]

Certainly true, as Jim probably knows professionally as well. However, these covers were painted will oilpaint to make them impermeable.

[marijn van gils]

Making the hammocks under their covers will be easiest for sure. There are different ways of doing it:
- sanding and carving from styrene strip (or directly the top edge of the bulwark)
- sculpting from epoxy putty.

Since they are rather 'regular' in this period, the first may be the easiest. Sculpting with epoxy putty is good if you want to include irregularity and folds, but the photos show little of either that would be visible in 1/700.

You can cover them with tissue paper for a different texture, but I feel the scale is too small for this to look good.

I don't know what colours they would have really had, but in a scale model I think it is important to differentiate them from the white wooden parts of the ship to emphasise that they are a different material. That will add to the variation in the model.
So, if they need to be white, make them a different shade (warmer or colder) than the other parts of the ship. And if they can be grey: go for it!

If you want the hammocks without their covers, that should be possible too at sea. In Napoleonic times, part of the reason to place the hammocks in this location is to air them out. Very important for hygiene! So when the weather would allow, the covers would usually be left of. I guess this would still be the same in this period?

[JIM BAUMANN]

@ wefalck. Pieter and Marjinn

all good and valid comments-- and I thank you for your input

I like the look of the creamy grey colour in 'Gannet' images above for my proposed Hammock canvas !

meanwhile progress is ongoing.

the stem head Beak is cut from a thick ( relatively!! ) piece of stainless steel,
and let into a sawblade cut into the bow

The raised aft quarters that will support the poop deck is in construction, the slightly tricky shape was made in
two halves and joined with a fillet melted in

The main deck needs the stairways cutting in next-- then the ( varnished ) paperdeck overlay
installed into the undercuts of the bulwarks as well as the under the overhang of the poop deck
which houses accommodation and a covered wheelhouse.
======================================================================
QUESTION!

I noticed that in the photos of all three of the preserved ships that there is a notable
" gutter " around the edges of the main deck -- all three of the ships in the above images
are broadly of the same era-- dare on presume similar practice on Bretagne?

======================================================================

I have turned in the interim my attention and thought to construction the masts and platforms...
and the sails,.... and how it will all marry up...-- in what order.... etc

Its a wonder I can still sleep!



Jim Baumann

[wefalck]

Yes and no - HMS GANNET and HMS WARRIOR were both composite-built ships, while BRETAGNE still was all wood (with iron braces and knees though), if I am correct. In consequence, there wouldn't have been 'gutters' around the deck, but water-ways. There were in practice many different designs, but it would look more or less like on the 1846 Portugues frigate DON FERNANDO II E GLORIA:



Here it basically a thick piece of wood that it triangular above deck-level. Note the drain with sieve a bit further down the deck, near the rope ladder providing access to the shrouds.

[JIM BAUMANN]

Hhhmmmnnnnn....

what to do..../.

==> @ wefalck...

have you any images of any images--on deck- of models of near contemporaries such Napoleon? or other Vaisseau models such as the large model of Valmy at the Mussee de |Marin--on deck

[wefalck]

May be, have to check my archive over the weekend ... one could/should also go through the Atlas du Genie Maritime, which has construction details.

[wefalck]

Had a quick look in my photo-database: I really focused on the later ships and don't have any detail pictures of 'wooden walls'.

There is one picture of the model of LA GLOIRE (1859), where one can just about see (between the main-mast and the ventilators), that she seems to have followed old practice with a thick and inclined on the top water-ways plank:



A practice that was still continued on the SOLFERINO (1861):



and the FLANDRE (1864):



There are cross-sections for LA GLOIRE and L'ALGESIRAS in the Atlas du Genie Maritime that confirms the above observations, but I would have to send you the pictures by PM.

[JIM BAUMANN]

Thank you Wefalck and Marjinn et al for thoughts and support


Bretagne was a very large ship -with a crew of well over 1100...

The hammocks would have been stowed three abreast.
As with ' Valmy '-- the hammock 'channels' overhung the bulwarks outboard some way and in-board as well.

I experimented with various methods of replicating these -to be repeatable and identical throughout--
and reckoned in 1/350 or bigger scales I would/ may have managed ... ( probably...)

In 1./700 I was failing. ........... ! arghhh..! Frustrated--



........... so went on Holiday to the Canary Islands !



==> ( actually that was planned..! )

======================================================================================
so...
upon my return I eagerly opened the envelope of 1mm Ibeam section from Plastruct I had ordered before my departure

Plastruct Ibeam is 50% smaller than the smallest Evergreen version )

But first I needed to open up the stairwells on the main deck -through the styrene and into the wood underneath by around 6mm

Thereafter I experimented with bending the plastic I beam for the sharply curved bow sections.... ( !! )

==> curved-one-side and flat-on-the-other side smooth jewellery Pliers worked here,
but it was springy and against the I beams nature...
so I then placed into hot water and over-bent the strip , and let it cool to the correct shape

The lower indent side of the I beam was painted with Revell Professional liquid cement ( quite slow) with an expendable paintbrush (!)

and the I beam placed on in one go (!!) and taped into place to set

a centre spine of of very thin styrene was applied down the centre of the main deck

-- as a former to create the deck camber

the self the drawn paper-deck

( as used on my Normandie and Lorna Doone models-- but Darkened and greyed slightly)

was varnished with enamel both sides to seal and stiffen.

This was lightly curved and, ... after a few test-fits the decking was then ' sprung' in between the bulwarks !

The centre was glued along the spine with slow setting white glue (giving acres of wiggle time ) and weighted overnight.

thereafter the built-in undercut that I had created earlier when I made the bulwarks...
=============================

reminder image....

================================



Was then filled in with a skinny strip of styrene as intended , so as to give a clean and sharp
deck to bulwark demarcation

( it mostly worked out! )

Next....the various stairwell raised coamings (some stairs fore and aft--some athwartships )


( and I just noticed missed out one set of stairs ! --more drilling and coaming making!! ...

The raised coaming haven been cut out of brass salvaged from a wide range of Old and new
spare and scrap Photo-etched brass ...

more soon... stairs , poop deck... and maybe some paint....?

Jim B

[SG1]

The use of I-beams was a most clever solution for the hammock channel. Hot water-shaping worked beautifully. Supercool.

[marijn van gils]

Your paper deck technique produces probably the finest and most realistic small scale decks I have ever seen. Brilliant!

The challenge is to combine it with the rest of the model that needs to be painted, yet achieve clean results. Very clever how you engineered the bulwarks to that purpose!
My difficulty would be the later paintwork of everything else, and adding later details. I would smudge paint and glue all over the deck I fear... But maybe the paper deck is more forgiving than I imagine? Do you have ways to correct painting and gluing mistakes on these decks, or do you really have to avoid those?

[JIM BAUMANN]

Thank You Marijinn and SG 1...

work continues;

though there is a plan ( ! ) , I am making up the solutions as I go along....

The I beam did indeed make a consistent-and strong structure, I used .35 thou styrene rod from Evergreen
to simulate the canvas-covered hammocks, ( my ship will be under way )

This further strengthened the bulwark structure

The various stairways--which descend in all sorts of directions -
were gleaned from the large scale plans ( 13675 pix across !)

I made these from Aber ladders, which come on a fret in 4 differing widths
( maybe a little chunky as ladders in 1/350...)
but when assembled in echolon they
make a fair representation of open stairs

and other sources and widths, again layered up

The funnel bases have been made, ...next will the various gratings ,

and then the poop cwith more hammocks !!

With some brushed thick paint the hammocks took on a regular, but not too regular shape.

This is now hardening for a few days, then I will give the hammocks a gentle sand with 2500 fine paper to remove the high points

then I will have to face the inevitable............

==> and apply some white paint to the Hull....

JIM B

[wefalck]

The hammock boxes turned out really realistic

[SG1]

The hammock boxes turned out really realistic

I totally agree !

then I will have to face the inevitable............ ==> and apply some white paint to the Hull....

[ModelMonkey]

Amazing...as always!