HMVS Cerberus in 1/96 scale - Completed 29/4/07

RickF · Post by **RickF** » Wed Oct 18, 2006 5:53 pm

Yes, I agree we should not hijack EP's thread, but I hope we are contributing something to his build - he's certainly making more progress with it than I am with my Cerberus.

I found the hardest thing was to pick a period and then decide what was or wasn't fitted or removed at that time.

Rick

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 7:07 am

I've done some small experiments with my Kombrig 1/700 Cerberus (which will become Hydra BTW as I'v already scratchbuilt a Cerberus). Kombrig seems to follow the same line of thought (maybe the same drawings?) as Dave Abott. If you turn the davits 90 degrees outward the end of the davits will be exactly above the edge of the main hull. This means the keel lines of the boats hanging from those davits would also be straight above the edge of the main hull. Introduce a small amount of rolling and pulling away the boats at the right moment becomes possible. It would take a skilled boat crew to do this right but it can be done. In the configuration with built up sides (as in the engraving on the Cerberus website) this would mean that the crew would have to hold off the boats from the sides during the trip down. This is not dissimilar to the way boats on large liners were handled at the time. I think these boats were only used in special circumstances ( emergencies) as the proceure is quite difficult. The smaller boats could be mandhandled on the deck for traffic purposes and exercises.
So I think EJ Pinninger can realistically build his Cerberus with fixed davits if he does the Cerberus in her original configuration and if he goes for the shorter deck version the hinged 'S' type davits as fitted on HMS Devastation should be used. I'm really looking forward to seeing the result!

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 9:47 am

Pieter. I think you may well have a good point and
your references to Devastation interesting. I think with
any model were the information is ambiuous at best
or in the worse case non existant. Similarities can then
be draw and rightly so from vessels of the same period
shearing common design features.

Once again your point is made clear on this photo of
John Hollis's 1:48th scale Devastation, a ship you made
mention of were there are many practical references
available to the modeller. Including the method used for
working the boat falls
The drawing for this came via the National Maritime Museum London

Pieter · Post by **Pieter** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:05 am

One nice thing to note about Cerberus and the other breastwork monitors (up to and including Devastation) is that there was one person responsible for the design, Edward Reed. All of them seem to have been developed in a fairly short period of time, 1865-67. Reed was off course responsible for all of the british warship designs of the period but according to DK Brown this line of development had his close personal interest. So the Ceberus-Magdala-Cyclops-Devastation line is really the result of one gifted designer dealing with some very difficult but similar problems. NB Devastation was much bigger but it was seen as a breastwork monitor by Reed. It was certainly not meant to fight on the wide oceans, Reed designed HMS Monarch in order to do just that.

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 10:19 am

This is so and to add, a close relative of the Cerberus design was the smaller Abyssinia . Once again it would be interesting to draw on the parallels of this particular vessel . Which could answer some of the outstanding questions surrounding Cerberus.
Dave Wooley

largeallan · Post by **largeallan** » Thu Oct 19, 2006 5:02 pm

What do you mean by the term 'breastwork'?....I've never heard this term used before.

RickF · Post by **RickF** » Fri Oct 20, 2006 8:51 am

The term breastwork monitor was used as a description of a number of ships designed by Sir Edward Reed, the Chief Constructor of the Royal Navy between 1863 and 1870.

Earlier (American)monitors had very low freeboard, with the ever-present risk of being swamped in a sea should water gain access to the interior through hatches, turret bases or other openings in the deck.

Reed proposed to overcome this risk by the addition of an armoured breastwork. This was an armoured superstructure of moderate height (7 ft in Cerberus), centrally placed on the ship and containing within its armoured circumference the gun turrets, bridge, funnels and all other upper deck appurtenances needed to operate the ship.

The breastwork allowed the ship to operate without fear of being flooded by waves braking over the deck and allowed the main armament to be positioned at a greater height than in the American monitors, gaining thereby greater command and range.

Rick

Edward Pinniger · Post by **Edward Pinniger** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 12:25 pm

Not too much progress over the last few days, but I have added some vents and a few other deck details and fittings, including the engine air intake vent. Currently working on the turret roof details - I'll hopefully post some more photos tomorrow.

Thanks for all the comments. I certainly don't mind discussion of the ship in this thread, particularly if it helps me build a more accurate model! I started a thread on the "Calling All Ships" forum, so it might be worth continuing the discussion there, as it's possible people building the paper kit or the Kombrig 1/700 resin kit might not think to look in the scratchbuild forum for reference.
Does anyone know the answer to my question (in the "Calling All Ships" post) about the skylight covers? I notice that the skylight in the photo showing the davits (RickF's post) doesn't appear to have a cover.
Another odd thing about this photo is that the lower superstructure is painted black, not white.

RickF wrote: I found the hardest thing was to pick a period and then decide what was or wasn't fitted or removed at that time.

This is definitely a problem, the easiest option seems to be the "as built" configuration -the card model represents this fit, and most models of Cerberus I've found via searching the web also do. I've used the photos of Dave Abbott's model as reference for the position of the smaller parts and fittings, but have to double-check everything as this model represents the 1875 Cerberus. I wanted to build the 1880s/1890s fit as the additional armament adds some extra visual interest and "clutter", and I think the ship looks better with the shortened flying deck (it makes the central superstructure slightly less "blocky" in appearance).
Most contemporary photos are of the ship in its later configuration (presumably because photography and cameras were more common later on) which is helpful. Also, the printed card kit of the Cerberus (as opposed to the free downloadable version, which I used) includes additional parts and instructions to build the ship in its 1885 configuration.

RickF · Post by **RickF** » Sat Oct 21, 2006 6:04 pm

OK, I've moved over to calling all ships for further discussions on the points raised in the above post.

Rick

Edward Pinniger · Post by **Edward Pinniger** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:13 am

Apologies for the lack of updates as I've been very busy lately (and my PC has also recently been randomly crashing/failing to boot up) Also I will be away from Monday (6th) until Friday.
Anyway, here are some photos of the model in its current state. Lots more small details although (as usual with scratchbuilds) the model doesn't look much different to two weeks ago from a distance. Still, it's really starting to look like a ship now rather than a pile of styrene offcuts!

More details on the flying deck, including vents and supporting girders. The mast is made from brass rod for additional strength - as the Cerberus will probably be completed as a R/C model, the parts needs to be fairly sturdy. The forward searchlight platform isn't complete, it is also not glued in place yet (this needs to wait until I've painted the deck, skylight and funnel)
It looks fairly "rough" at the minute due to paint, filler, pencil marks etc.

Turret roof details (incomplete). Also visible are storage lockers, the lower half of a vent pipe, and ladders on the breastwork sides. The superstructure parts below the flying deck are almost devoid of fittings and surface detail, this is (as far as I can tell from contemporary photos) accurate.
The turret gratings (rectangular structures on the roof) are quite complex sub-assemblies which took a while to build, though this isn't really visible in the photo.

Started work on the fore and aft deck details including bollards, hatches and anchor chain fittings.

One thing noticeable in the second photo is that, although not a "full hull" model, this is not a true waterline model as about 1.5cm of the hull below the waterline is represented (the real ship had a very low freeboard). This is to increase the stability of the model in the event that I manage to get the motorisation/RC working (which will involve attaching a removable motorised unit, adapted from a cheap R/C toy boat, under the hull)

kennylibben wrote:holy crap this is a fast build!

It certainly looks like this, but there have been quite a few "hitches" along the way, such as cutting the flying deck over 50% too wide as a result of misinterpreting the card model plans, and only discovering my mistake after I'd added the planking and side frames to the deck. I also glued the entire funnel assembly on backwards (and only discovered this the next day after the glue had set) and painstakingly scratchbuilt the engine air intake housing before discovering that after 1885 this was replaced by a simple cowl vent!
Worst of all was gluing the turret roof gratings in the wrong place, which resulted in me having to cut a replacement pair of turret roofs (as removing the gratings wrecked the old ones)

RickF wrote:Yes, I agree we should not hijack EP's thread, but I hope we are contributing something to his build - he's certainly making more progress with it than I am with my Cerberus.
Rick

I'd definitely be interested to see your work - I'm sure it will be a more accurate model than mine even if it takes rather longer to build! Whilst I'm certainly not rushing this build, I am trying to avoid getting "bogged down" - I'm building it to the best of my abilities and will try and make it as detailed as I can, but if a sub-assembly doesn't turn out 100% right, I'll either correct it if possible or otherwise just put up with it, rather than starting over again.
Other than a diminutive 1/200 Polish minesweeper and a not-particulary-accurate 1/200 Tribal-class destroyer, this is my first large scratchbuild, and as I already have so many half-finished projects, I am trying to concentrate my efforts on finishing this one in a reasonable timeframe.

When I've finished the Cerberus I'm considering buying one or two other Paper Shipwright kits to use as plans for scratchbuilding. Probably the Melik gunboat and the monitor M-33. (The latter ship is under restoration at Portsmouth Dockyard, next to HMS Victory - I took quite a few photos of it earlier this year)

ARH · Post by **ARH** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 10:26 am

Looking good,

look forward to more updates, keep up the good work.

ARH

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Sat Nov 04, 2006 11:42 am

Excellent progress and your attention to detail is showing through even at this early stage. Thanks again for posting
Dave Wooley

Edward Pinniger · Post by **Edward Pinniger** » Wed Nov 29, 2006 4:20 pm

Apologies for the lack of updates! The build is progressing very well and I'll hopefully post some more photos tomorrow or Friday. Loads of deck fittings and surface details added since the last lot of photos, plus I've started work on painting the decks. Currently I'm working on the bridge fittings (wheel, binnacle, compass and telegraph)

I've also tried out some white-metal casting today for the first time, this is a bit too late for this build (though I may use it for the Nordenfelt guns on the flying deck, possibly also the searchlights and 6pdr guns) but will be very useful for duplicating fittings on future scratchbuilding or kitbashing projects.
I know resin casting is generally better in terms of the quality of the finished product, but metal casting is a lot more "user-friendly" for a clueless beginner like me - any mistakes you make can just be melted down and recycled.

Edward Pinniger · Post by **Edward Pinniger** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:23 pm

Making slow but steady progress. Various fittings + bits added such as the steps, smaller bollards, flying deck supports, etc., plus more details on the hull.
Since I took these photos I've reshaped the hull below the waterline at the bows and stern, which greatly improves the appearance of the hull.

Forward deck, showing work started on the anchor chain fittings. The chain ports (is this the correct term?) are spares left over from the Revell 1/96 USS Kearsarge. They're a very good match, if I didn't have them in my spares box I'd have scratchbuilt the ports from styrene tube. The steps are also taken from the spares box (haven't added handrails yet). I've also started work on the pumps, which are made from propeller shaft pins left over from aeroplane kits - similar parts are used as the basis for the capstan + binnacle (it helps to save -every- part left over from a plastic kit, you never know what it'll be useful for in the future

)

Aft deck, showing the companionway/stairway hatch (not 100% complete) fitted between the 2 skylights. This was added in the 1880s and replaced the compass platform, which was moved aft of the skylights (haven't added this yet). Also added is a new propeller access hatch. Originally I built the prop/rudder access hatch according to the card model plans, which show a fairly small + simple structure, later research indicated that the hatch was a much larger structure, with what appear to be a pair of chain ports in the top. Similarly, I'm not 100% sure whether the compass platform (not fitted yet) was square or round - I eventually decided on square, as this is shown in a contemporary engraving, though of course this might not be accurate!

Detail added to the hull sides and hawseholes. The nameplate is made from Slaters styrene lettering (intended for model railway/railroad signs - they make lettering in a wide variety of scales and sizes). Another nameplate will be added to the fore end of the flying deck.

Flying deck. Searchlight platform and ladders installed, and I've started work on painting (still work-in-progress so looks fairly rough).

The ship in dismantled form (you can see the structure added to the flying deck, and the turret roof vision ports) This assembly method makes things a lot easier when building a model of this size and complexity, and I will definitely use it on all my future scratchbuilds.

Hopefully the hull and deck will be painted in the next update. I'm also soon going to start work on the secondary armament (4x Nordenfelt 4-barrel machineguns, 2x 6pdr guns, and possibly also 2x 14pdr guns amidships on the breastwork deck) which will be an interesting challenge. I'll probably use metal casting for the Nordenfelts.
Also currently under construction are the ship's wheels (made from heavily modified spare N-gauge railway wagon wheels), capstan, compass and binnacle.

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 12:35 pm

I certainly like the way you have done the lettering and deck. And you criticize your progress your to hard on yourself? Steady progress yes but not slow. What do you intend to use for stanchions and rails?
Dave Wooley

Post by **JIM BAUMANN** » Thu Nov 30, 2006 6:58 pm

Hey... that looks about the Cerebrus should look--good stuff!!

I have been following your thread with interest--and will continue doing so!

Cheers

JIM B

Edward Pinniger · Post by **Edward Pinniger** » Mon Dec 04, 2006 1:08 pm

Dave Wooley wrote:What do you intend to use for stanchions and rails?

The stanchions will be made from brass wire/rod, along with the davits, flag jacks, etc. Things like this are very prone to getting snapped off if made from styrene (my 1/72 Flower-class corvette needed a lot of repairs, mostly to the railings, rigging and davits, after transporting it to and from the local IPMS meeting last month!). Not sure what I'll make the railings from - possibly fine wire.
The deck is made from Slaters 2mm textured styrene (also available in 1mm, which is about right for 1/200, and 4mm, which would be suitable for 1/48 ) When painted, drybrushed and washed it should give a good impression of teak planking. I may attempt to put a real wood deck on future scratchbuilds.

I'm currently halfway through painting the hull and deck - will post another update soon.

Edward Pinniger · Post by **Edward Pinniger** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:29 pm

Looking much better with a coat of paint (or several coats in some cases):

(Deck fittings are unpainted as most of them are still incomplete)

The model is painted with Tamiya and Revell acrylics - Tamiya XF68 NATO Brown below the waterline, Revell Black, White and Ochre for the hull and superstructure, and Revell Stone Grey for the deck (this will receive an oil wash when finished, to highlight the planking). The finished model will be weathered, though fairly minimally as the real ship was presumably kept in good condition.

I used contemporary photographs wherever possible to determine the colours of the various parts of the ship (the paint scheme varied slightly during the ship's life - I'm painting it as it was in the 1880-1890 period). The charthouse, conning tower, vents and superstructure all appear to be white (only the funnel is painted in buff), ladders/steps are all black or dark grey, main deck fittings are mostly black. The colour of the mast and top is hard to determine but it appears that the mast was painted black and the top buff. (According to contemporary documents the topmast was also painted buff in 1895)

Various fittings and small parts (some unfinished) - wheel, binnacle, bridge telegraph, mast top (upside-down in the photo), Nordenfelt gun pedestals, and 6pdr gun barrels. As well as styrene stock, various bits salvaged from the spares box were used - the wheels are heavily modified N-gauge railway/railroad wagon wheels, the 6-pounder guns are modified from 1/72 tank parts, and the capstan, binnacle, telegraph and gun pedestals all incorporate various styrene pins, washers and cylinders left over from kits.

Though the ship is now painted, it's still far from complete, there are loads of small deck fittings to add along with the secondary armament, railings, davits, mast etc. I usually paint the hull, deck + superstructure of large ship models (including larger 1/350 and 1/400 models) before adding all of the fittings and details as it is very easy to break these off when painting the hull (the deck and superstructure are also a lot easier to paint without small fittings and railings getting in the way)

I've recently purchased the card kits for TSS Melik and HM Monitor M-33 from Paper Shipwrights - the Melik will probably be my next scratchbuild project. It's a good deal smaller and simpler than the Cerberus but reference material seems to be very hard to find.

Post by **Dave Wooley** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:35 pm

Looking good paint work is very slik . Question are you going to scratch build the ships boats?
Dave Wooley

Edward Pinniger · Post by **Edward Pinniger** » Fri Dec 08, 2006 3:54 pm

Dave Wooley wrote: Question are you going to scratch build the ships boats?
Dave Wooley

I'll probably use modified boats from a plastic kit in the same or a similar scale. I have 3 left over from the Revell 1/96 USS Kearsarge (as I only put 3 of the 6 boats on the model) though I don't know if any of these will be usable (will check later)
Failing that I'll probably try and scratchbuild them, using the same method as the card model parts, but with 0.2mm styrene sheet. Not sure if this will work however.

As I will probably be sticking to 1/96 scale for most of my future scratchbuilds, I'm thinking of making some moulds for heat-forming ship's boat hulls in styrene (recommended in Brian King's "Advanced Ship Modelling" book) some time in the future.

The Ship Model Forum

HMVS Cerberus in 1/96 scale - Completed 29/4/07

Keel line